Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Thanks InAny :) I will be reading through those. I wish we could have a sticky thread.

I have no idea why anyone would think it patronising to have such a thread. We all have to start somewhere.

Hi Purple. I am a man, fairly new to here, and I was pointed in the direction of here;

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

I know you asked for a thread on here specifically, but I wouldn't feel qualified to start one. Some of the antagonism on here is because, as this blog says, basic questions can sometimes be perceived as deliberately antagonistic rather than just a lack of knowledge. However, many of the posters on here - the large majority - are pretty fair if you have shown that at least you have done a bit of prior research. A bit like attempting schoolkid French when on holiday - it charms the native speakers . Anyway, good luck. I hope it helps.

I didn't see this question as deliberately antagonistic. I saw it as sexist, which it was.

If feminists don't get annoyed at sexism and challenge it, who will?

People get challenged all over Mumsnet. It's only the feminism section that gets a hard time for it generally.

Mumsnet is a robust place, that's its culture - it's not limited to the feminist section.

If you mean me, Nyac, I was talking about the board as a whole, not just this question.

The 'robustness' can make debate a lot of fun.

How about we start talking about sexist men at work.

There are a lot of them. They cause women a lot of harm.

I like the robustness and stridency
I'd hate it to be gushy and luv ya

I've worked in so many workplaces where there is just zero respect for women.

Only penis holders count.

You go for it purple if you want to start a thread like that.

TBH I think it would be better if mumwithdice came back to her thread. Mumwithdice, IIRC you started the 'women only space' thread. I thought it was a brilliant idea for a thread and I know others did too. You got mixed comments on this thread, but you stimulated an interesting discussion. I know you have posted a fair bit on threads in this section so you know how it works here - sometimes we are surprised by the reaction to a post or a comment that we didn't think was particularly controversial.

I wish you would come back to this thread and let us know what you think of the discussion you have created. As I said earlier, I think your OP was naive, but that is hardly the crime of the century is it? So you get some straight talking on MN (ALL of it, not just here) but we aren't going to pop through the screen and actually do anything to you. You don't need to hide away from this thread. You don't have to comment on all the posts (bit long!), but I for one would be interested in how you see the issue of women/work/stereotypes that you have raised, now that it has been discussed.

There is no shame in not knowing feminist stuff or getting it wrong sometimes, most of us have learnt it by getting burnt here or there or having a feminist who is further down the road being sharp or blunt with us. I know I have.

not forgetting the sexist women in work
there are a lot of them.they cause a lot of harm
as widowwadan et al have discussed,it was women who perpetrated sexism in. work

I am up for discussing sexism at work, though I would have thought it is just people carrying their everyday prejudices into the office with them. If someone puts a woman down at work, they wouldn't abandon this attitude once they left the office, would they?

I mentioned yesterday that there was an IT thread on here, and that a lot of posters had had good experiences within IT. Here it is;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1424038-Any-women-here-working-on-IT-Electronics-Computer-Science

The adoption of flexible working, working at home, contract working and other less traditional practices seems to make it, in my HIGHLY LIMITED experience, a better environment for women to work. Not perfect, but better. Most of the posters in there concur.

Why are some people so intent on focusing on women's sexism, when most of the time it is diametrically related to men's sexism? Women tend not to feel the need to act in a sexist manner if their male counterparts refrain from sexism.

why do some posters only address male sexism,and penis rules?
sexism is harmful and pernicious regardless of whom perpetrator is
and minimizing or denying that women can be sexist too,doesn't do anyone any favour. this one world view of sexism is a male pursuit, well it's erroneous.and plays into the myth of sisterhood and women are goddesses
who wouldn't mistreat another goddess. I can. tell you,and others give similar accounts, the worst sexism. and jip I experienced was perpetrated by a female

regardless of whom perpetrator is,sexism is toxic

Yeah women are the worst sexists.

It is all women's fault running the world the way they do to disadvantage themselves and treat themselves like shit. Cowbags all of 'em I say.

And that sisterhood solidarity thing is a pile of sexist shite too. Solidarity pah!

Again, see above.

Eradication of male sexism in a work place usually leads to the eradication of female sexism.

Re sexism in the workplace;

Is it possible that that there is a type of behaviour at work encouraged by capitalism and 'the market'? To get ahead, a company has to trounce all those competitors around it, rub them into the dust until they go away, or are no longer a threat. How it achieves this, by fair means or fouls, doesn't really matter (as long as it doesn't get caught). This permeates through any capitalist company's culture, ensuring that anyone who wants to get ahead adopts this cut-throat, put-my-competition-down, fuck-you mindset.

If I am like this, I will put ANYONE down who I see as a threat, man or woman. I will emphasise their perceived weaknesses. I will use stereotypes - he isn't one of the lads, she will only get pregnant again - etc. It might also explain why the fewer women that do make it to senior positions are also capable of the same behaviour, even though it damages 'the cause'. To anyone of this mindset, there is no cause only themselves and their own financial success.

I guess my question is, does the capitalist, free market system make sexist behaviour a great tool for personal advancement at work, and therefore inevitable? And please, it is a THEORY ONLY, not necessarily a belief.

I will challenge any global erroneous statement that doesn't stand up to rigorous inspection such as penis rules

and yep sisterhood,what an ideological con. women aren't homogenous mass.there's no reason for me to identify with or feel affinity on basis of gender alone. I can't believe people fall for that sentimental we is goddesses, hear woman roar

I'm more likely to have affinity, allegiance based upon class,education,experience,attitudinal outlook,than solely gender

and if one still persist with the sisterhood myth, well peruse mn. that will quickly disavow you of such nonsense

"Yeah women are the worst sexists.

It is all women's fault running the world the way they do to disadvantage themselves and treat themselves like shit. Cowbags all of 'em I say.

And that sisterhood solidarity thing is a pile of sexist shite too. Solidarity pah!"

I knew we'd find an answer on this thread. Thank you for helping us see the light Beachcomber.

No wonder feminism has got it so wrong focusing on men's sexist behaviour. It was women all along!

Sisterhood is a myth. This is why you'll find women laying into each other on here. No matter how much you call for order, there's always dissent in the ranks. It's called the human condition, because that's what we are, you can't categorise people.

Can someone tell me what page, or date or whereabouts, to find OP's H dropping himself in it please?

I aim to help.

No wonder feminism has got it so wrong focusing on men's sexist behaviour. It was women all along!

You just keep repeating that hun and you'll have things sorted in no time.

The fact that feminism even exists and has been successful in a number of ways shows that sisterhood is a reality not a myth.

The myth is that because women are sisters we always have to like each other, agree with each other and always get on. Since when did sisters never fall out or have disagreements? It's sexist to expect women to behave in a such a superhuman way.

You also don't need to like or love a single woman in the world, to believe that women shouldn't be oppressed by men. Fighting oppression isn't a social exercise, it's a political and moral imperative.

For the uninitiated, what is the difference between sisterhood and friendship?