Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

What's upsetting you, Sigmund? Is it the doors? Or are the doors a metaphor, do you think?

What's upsetting me? Oh I dunno..maybe feminists?

Thanks for the tissue Smells, I'll pad my unburnt bra with it

But Sigmund, you are surrounding yourself with caricatures and upsettedness, surely. Life as a feminist is actually very uplifting for me, and for my daughter and son. And I like people and I do aspire to support everyone's human rights.

Sigmund you came on this thread looking for a fight. You got one. Don't play injured martyr now.

I love the theory that men 'conspire' to keep women off garbage trucks etc..

Not a theory. It's a fact. The Miners Act of 1842 forbade the employment of women and girls underground - not many female MPs involved in passing that law.

The Textile Act of 1844 banned women from overnight work which kept them out of street cleaning.

You may be right about sewage works - my emploment history knowledge doesn't stretch that far.

The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 was meant to sweep all that away - and it did legally but not socially. Even today there are some jobs with few women employed in them - and high levels of sexism and sexual harassment are faced by those that do. In other words, men make the environmentso unpleasant that few women want to work there. Generally jobs that fall into this category tend to be better paid - even with comparable jobs that are female dominated. (see this case from just 10 months ago.

No one is saying that they don't want to be treated respectfully - which is what I think you may be confusing chivalry with.

They don't seem to care about how I feel, yet they're perfectly happy to continue in my name, without asking me.

What would feminists be doing if they cared about you?

I did not come on looking for a fight. I'm neither injured nor a martyr. I have a point of view which is often belittled but I'm a big girl, I can cope. It's interesting that a woman who expresses a different view is 'looking for a fight'.

Anyway, I have a 5 year old demanding attention, so this 'walking cliche' has to go.

Laters.

There is still a big issue of female and male wage rates differences particularly in working class jobs stuffed with jobs for the boys white men in the public sector. Some very brave women rbought many many council equal pay cases to ensure parity of pay in jobs which were equivalent but I suspect there is still much to be done in many of those types of jobs.

I support equal rights for men on divorce (as a woman who paid out to a man on divorce) and I have always lobbied against women who deny men contact with their chidlren as I want fairness - that is all feminism is and far too many parents, usually female, deny men contact. I would like the law changed to 50./50 care post divorce unless the parties agree otherwise or the court says so which would help full time working mothers and also fathers. The extent F4J supports that principle I support them,. Most parents of either gender feel upset when they hear about a parent denied contact with a child as we know how it feels to love a child.

What is it that you want feminists to care more about, that affects you, Sigmund?

It is that

our daughters struggle to find a man who will be prepared to father their children ?

Radfeminists demonise men, linerunner. I'm not going to get into this argument again. The whole MRA response bothers me. I want equality, not gender division and hostility.

Radfeminist demonise men?

I have never seen that.

Show me where. I have seen them criticise bad men. But that is somewhat different.

I have never seen anyone on this board demonise men. I have seen discussion of men's behaviour as a statistical group, but never ever have I seen men themselves demonised. In fact, one of the things that struck me as I learned about feminism was that men were not demonised, and in fact were held in much higher regard than by non-feminists. The non-feminist standpoint seems to be that men "can't help" certain behaviours, which I find quite insulting to the vast majority of men who most certainly can help it.

''and far too many parents, usually female, deny men contact.''

Yet, every study on the subject points to women being the ones chasing their ex partners and husbands, trying to get them to have even minimal contact. These same studies show nearly twice as many women thought their ex's should spend more time with the kids, than there are men who wanted more time with the kids.

There is no evidence that even a significant number of women are denying men contact to their children.

rad feminists get criticised for 'demonising men', when all they're doing is pointing out inequality and unfairness, and also correcting various myths that fly around.

I find it sad that we are still having to point out to other women that the majority of separated and divorced women would like their children's fathers to have the children more, not less; and that such women have no legal recourse to make this happen.

I like most men I know, I even love some of them. I have a problem with the patriarchy, not most men

I'm not going to get into this argument again.

Fair enough - that's your prerogative. But when you say: They don't seem to care about how I feel, yet they're perfectly happy to continue in my name, without asking me. and then you are asked and ignore it, you end up coming across as someone wanting to be a martyr / spoiling for a fight. I'm not saying that you're doing this intentionally - but I'm struggling to see it any other way.

yep i was on a thread about just that yesterday - a woman being criticised by other women for thinking that her ex should actually have the kids more than 4 nights a month and that it would be nice to get a bit of time to herself. apparently she should have been grateful that he had them at all

i've never met anyone who denied contact but i've met a hell of a lot who wish the father would step up and have more contact but funnily enough whilst the courts love the father's right to contact they never have much to say about responsibilities.

we need to scrap the whole rights nonsense (kids aren't a dvd collection) and actually deal in responsibilities - equality of responsibilities sounds good to me. imagine a court that could order a father to do 50% of the childcaring rather than just talk about his rights to see them of a weekend if he fancies it.

Smlles like, I agree that more women want more contact from the fathers than women deny contact. However I know far too many people who want contact which is denied to believe it is rare. Thankfully most couples reach agreement but there is a still a bit problem which I hope all feminists would support resolving of men wanting more contact than they are given with their children. It's an awful heart rending issue in relation to which many women sympathise with men.

My suggestion of a default legal position that it is half the week with each parent (or every other week) unless the couple agree otherwise and unless the court orders otherwise would help all the mothers who don't get enough help and all those fathers who are denied contact. It is also the position in many countries and it reflects fairness too. It also means that women can be icked back into work and plenty need that kick rather than living off male earnings post divorce. If they know they have half the week covered for childcare it is much easier to get back into full time work and then men pay less too so it is win win all round.

I think that sounds like an excellent approach xenia, if you think kids are just like dvds and their needs don't matter at all

Well done, Xenia, Well done.