Derailers... Help? <possible triggers>

[TakingBackSaturday]

How do you deal with them?

The derailer in question is a close friend, who identifies as a feminist. However, of late, I've noticed she has a tendency to derail feminist conversations; one of which was a conversation about rape, in which she insisted it was unfair on men to exclaim that "men shouldn't rape", because, as far as she was concerned, it labelled all men rapists. She's supposed to be an English student, so should have more awareness of how the English language works... But still.

She also went on to explain how this comment was unfair, on the basis that it assumes all rapists are men, and it eliminates the victims of female rapists. We're both in England, so under our law, the presence of a penis is needed for a rape. When she was challenged on this, she carried on to say we didn't know how many male victims of women rapists there are, considering how shaming it must be for a man to admit he's been raped by a woman.

How do I explain to her that forcing women to talk about men in a predominantly woman based experience is derailing, and misogynistic? Because, atm, she won't listen to anyone who tries to explain.

You've tried your best to explain; she's obviously not going to change her opinion. I would just drop it. she does sound quite thick though

I wouldn't bother. The older you get, the more you realise that no matter what you do, what you say, you'll never change someone's mind unless they are prepared to change it. Doesn't sound like she is.

I don't understand your last paragraph though.

Sorry, slightly sleep deprived atm.

What I meant was how do I explain that shouting "what about the men" (sorry to use a cliche on these boards) when talking about these issues is misogynistic, derailing... Just rehashing, really.

If she's a student, I suggest you ask her what texts she's read recently to back up her views and what statistics she has to hand that point to a serious problem of women "raping" men and why rape within a patriarchal society affects all women and men, whether or not they are/have been victims or rapists.

If she can quote some (which I doubt), then there's something to challenge. If she can't suggest that as a student who is used to doing research to find evidence to back up her assertions, she look into it further. And as a feminist, she would no doubt welcome (!) recommendations of some feminist texts discussing the issue of rape, its causes and effects.

Then perhaps after she's properly researched the area, she could then tell you what her opinions are and you might take her more seriously.

Hope you got a bit of sleep

"She's supposed to be an English student, so should have more awareness of how the English language works... "

Seems like she does. If you said "black people shouldn't thieve", it would sound like you were talking about all black people; one wouldn't assume that you were only referring to the tiny majority who actually do it.

"How do I explain to her that forcing women to talk about men in a predominantly woman based experience is derailing, and misogynistic?"

I don't think it's either, to be honest.

"We're both in England, so under our law, the presence of a penis is needed for a rape."

I find that pretty stupid and sexist to be honest. If anything, it might be worth to try and challenge the wording of the law, so it includes forceful penetration by using whatever means, no matter whether it is a body part or not.

I'm pretty much on your friend's side. And yes, I'm completely aware of the figures. Still don't find it useful to only concentrate on male perpetrators.

Only the penis can forcibly impregnate a woman. There's a reason why men use it as a weapon and why it's specificied in law like that.

Rapists aren't running round sticking pencils into women's ears. They use the penis as a weapon against women's sexual organs.

It's not sexist to point out reality. It would be sexist not to and to try and pretend everything is equal when it's not.

OP I would not bother having these discussions with your friend, unless you're in a specifically feminist space/group in which case keep challenging her.

What ecclesvet said.

Is she derailing or is she just disagreeing with you? It doesn't sound like derailment to me.

Why do you want to change her mind? What will you achieve by doing it? Is it worth it?

Immaculada, as far as I'm aware, she's quite well versed on feminist reading; she's the one introduced me to feminism, and bought me a range of feminist books for Christmas this year, after noticing my increased interest.

Thank you, Nyac. Was trying to compose a response to EV and WW, but I think yours hit the nail on the head. :)

So rape is about the risk of pregnancy, really?

I really don't find that level of debate very helpful - as it kind of implies that a lot of instances of rape which could not result in pregnancy as less bad.

Rape isn't really about pregnancy is it? Doesn't forcing a penis into a mouth or anus also constitute rape?

In part.

For example in the Bosnian conflict rape was used intentionally as a weapon of genocide to impregnate women in order that they gave birth to their enemies' babies.

Women across the world generally don't have access to birth control or abortion. When a rapist rapes a woman he knows it's a strong possibility that he will impregnate her. All women of childbearing age have to worry about pregnancy.

It doesn't imply anything of the sort. Once again it's a statement of reality, women's reality.

"When a rapist rapes a woman he knows it's a strong possibility that he will impregnate her. All women of childbearing age have to worry about pregnancy."

So if she's not of childbearing age, it's not rape?

If she's infertile?

If he wears a condom?

If he rapes her anally?

The significance of the danger of pregnancy goes deeper than the mere invasion of the victims own body?

The rapes in Bosnia were to make the women bear children? Not to humiliate them? (The possible pregnancies being a tool of humiliation).

No that's not what I said.

I'm not responding to have my words twisted.

But thanks for outlining all the ways men can rape women WW. Very helpful.

In what way have I twisted your words if your premise is that the danger of pregnancy is central to rape?

I don't think Nyac said pregnancy was central to rape.

She explained why the law is the way it is.

Stop twisting words, please.

She explained why the law was as it is - I think it's worth changing this definition. I'm not twisting words, I'm simply disagreeing and have outlined the reasons why I disagree.

All of the examples you included are classed as rape, under the UK law, though.

It seems like Nyac you also forgot about child rape and male rape, both of which has nothing what's so ever to do with impregnating anyone. The act you quoted about the Bosnian war, and subsequent conflicts in the Sudan for example are about rape being used as part of genocide, and war crimes. In fact if such a phrase should ever be used it was institutional rape as it was encouraged and in some cases enforced within one sector of society against others.

TBS, why must you change this woman's thinking, is she not allowed her own thoughts, can no one ask awkward questions? I thought as rational humans we debated things and had exchanges of ideas and views, not neccesarily to all agree but at least to consider every angle of an issue.

YellowRaincoat, I am glad your still here!

Blimey, is women raping men a big problem we should all be aware of? First I've heard of it.

The vast majority of rapists are men so I don't see how it's offensive to say this? Its not the same as saying all men are rapists. Although all men do have the potential to be rapists, it doesn't mean they will be one.

I get where TalkingBack is coming from, I think. Its very frustrating to always be having to consider what about the men, especially in this context. Can't women talk about rape without having to worry about how men feel about it? (Apparently not, according to some).

Nyac is not saying the pregnancy is the reason why rapists rape. What a bizarre interpretation of her post.

Child rape and male rape is much less common, than the rape of women.

1 in 9 children are not raped.

1 in 9 men are not raped.

I agree with Nyac, I wouldn't bother to have this argument with your friend.

If your friend is still in a place where she still accepts that men's lives are automatically more important than those of women and therefore you simply can't discuss anything that affects women without shouting "wotaboutthemenz!?", then you can't really get any further with her and it's flogging a dead horse. Discuss stuff that you can with her and discuss the stuff you can with others - horses for courses and all that. I've got loads of friends I just wouldn't waste my time with discussing feminism, because there's no point.

Nyac I get what you're saying.

I don't understand why her words have been interpreted to mean unless there's a risk of pregnancy it's not rape...?? Where did she say that?

Also men aren't constantly bombarded with messages telling them to watch out, don't drink too much, don't take a route that 's dark and unsafe, etc, in case they get raped.

They aren't blamed for rape when it happens to them.

But some people are determined to have it, that rape is a big issue for men and women are just bitching about it pretending that it affects them more and differently from how it affects men.

Because they just don't want women's issues to be discussed. That's what it comes down to really. There's a sort of resentment about the idea that women have specific issues which specifically affect them and disadvantage them, or affect them differently from the way they do men, in patriarchal society and lots of people just don't want to hear that.

I think if you know that, you're kind of inured to the frustration and irritation that you feel when you aren't aware of that.

My friends used to irritate me about this stuff. Now I just feel serene and don't give a shit - I can come on here and talk to you lot.