Attitudes to sex: is it maybe a cultural thing?

[WidowWadman]

As per AF's suggestion, I'll just repeat my thoughts from the facejizzing thread and we'll take it from there:

As an aside - I wonder whether it's also a wider cultural thing aside from female/male dynamics - as in, as a German, I find the overall attitude to sex in Britain weird - it's either being ridiculed or talked about in very negative terms, and overall it's all pretty taboo.

Would a feminist from the continent look at it in a different way? I've been living here longer than I've been interested in feminism, so didn't have these discussions over there really, but the general attitude to sex and talking about it seemed/seems much more open than over here.

TBE - where did you meet these European radical feminists though? Where they on platforms for radical feminism?

Just trying to figure out whether there might be some kind of selection bias. I mean, I'm aware that not all British (or American for that matter) feminism is anti-porn either. I'm just wondering about what types of feminism are prevalent where.

As I said, I've never debated feminist topics with Germans much (the only German forum I still use is depressingly not interest in feminism at all), and with my friends the topic doesn't come up from a feminist perspective either.

So not doubting your experience, just going by my experience how differently Germans and Brits talk about sex.

Of course you are answering my question - and thanks for your thoughts - I find it interesting.

If in your experience there's no difference in their stance no matter where they're from are, then that would be an argument against my theory. And as it's just a theory, I'm happy to accept that I'm barking up the wrong tree if I am.

Will be interesting to see what others think, too

Did you just want to talk about sex again, WW ?

Inserting the random word "feminist" somewhere doesn't necessarily make it a feminism topic-worthy topic.

Perhaps "_chat" is a more appropriate arena ?

I don't understand the question, but it is late.
Watch Jeremy Kyle on uk tv, I think you'll find all the answers. It's all they talk about.

I'm confused about the origins of the question. I asked you on the other thread, but you were probably occupied with starting this one, which is fair enough.

Are you asking whether in our experience British feminists are less open or more repressed about sex than feminists from other North European countries?

Or are you conflating a dislike of porn and sexual practices that many of us believe are derived from porn, with a repressed attitude to sex?

If it's the former, IME that is a cultural stereotype that has no basis in the reality of my interactions with feminists from other North European countries.

If it's the latter, I think that conflation is another myth and unhelpful stereotype.

If the question is something different, can you explain further?

Anyfucker - on the other thread you wrote:

"That's a different thread, WW, and an interesting one

Perhaps start a new discussion ?"

So I did.

Now suddenly it is me just wanting to talk about sex again? The reason why I started it here, rather than in chat is in my original question: I wondered whether there are cultural differences from country to country how feminists approach the topic.

charbon - "Are you asking whether in our experience British feminists are less open or more repressed about sex than feminists from other North European countries?"

Yes, that's my question.All the feminist literature which has been quoted here, (unsurprisingly) has been written bei British or American authors. The majority of posters is British So I did wonder whether their stance is influenced somehow by cultural background.

TBE's reply suggests it isn't. I don't have personal experience of how German feminists see the topic as I only got interested in the topic over here, but I'm aware that my own attitude is massively is influenced by my cultural background.

I'm still puzzled how the topic turned from "an interesting one, perhaps start a new discussion" to totally uninteresting and creepy of me to want to talk about.

I'm not sure how a thread in chat will give me any answers on whether British/American feminism, especially when discussing sexual politics differs from feminism in other countries, so I didn't put it there.

Anyway, I'm bored now.

WW I think people are a bit at this thread because it seems to be invoking the 'feminists are prudes' stereotype.

Which is generally considered by feminists to be ad hominen.

In answer to your question, I'm British but I live in France. My British friends talk more openly about sex than my French friends.

My feminist friends, be they Brits or French, speak very openly about sex and very few, if any subjects are taboo. My feminist friends will talk about ass to mouth, facials, double penetration, anal gaping, etc. They will be talking about these things within the context of a political discussion from a feminist perspective however.

I suspect that most of my friends who don't discuss feminism, don't even know what most of the above practices are or even that they exist.

To clarify, my British friends are from a big city, my French friends are from a rural area - this may be related to how taboo or not discussions about sex are considered.

It's not clear from OP if you intend this to be a discussion of pretty minor differences in sexual preference within the highly privileged first world community.

Or if you want to look at the differences - not just cultural but also economic - of communities across the globe.

Beachcomber:'My feminist friends will talk about ass to mouth, facials, double penetration, anal gaping, etc.'

I don't know what the fuss is about.It's probably the sort of stuff our parents got up to when we were at aunty Jen's for the weekend.

I'm not too sure what you mean lollygag.

I just mean that when discussing porn, for example, the feminists I know will refer to hardcore acts/violence without needing their smelling salts.

People can't resist cultural comparisons, but if you want to be serious about something, it's dangerous unless you're multicultural enough to have a full understanding of the places you're talking about. Otherwise we seem to fall into stereotypes, and we might end up being called insensitive or even racist. Maybe attitudes towards sex or feminism are different in Britain versus Germany (or versus anywhere) but before I'd trust anyone to explain it, I'd want an idea of how much they really knew, and how much insight they could really put into it.

Let's have a joke that goes "There was an Englishwoman, an Irishwoman and a Scotswoman, and they..."

given all of the mentioned countries are patriarchies and feminists see the personal as political (including sexual preferences and practices) i'm thinking views would be the same.

the variation you'll get is between funfemproporn types and real radfems.

I'd actually suggest that culturally in general, Germany and the rest of Northern Europe are much closer in social and political values to the UK than any of them are to the USA (which is where I grew up.) I certainly noticed a more liberal attitude to sex in general in Europe than in the US.

I've always found it curious though that many folks seem to believe feminists have puritanical attitudes towards sex. They may oppose things like sexualisation of children or women selling sex, but not for reasons of morality - for reasons of the harm caused to women and children by these things. I don't see why it's such a difficult concept to get.

Swallowed: the variation you'll get is between funfemproporn types and real radfems.

      I think my Doctor prescribed funfemproporn for me when I had a bad back.

Ah ha, so thats how it is all categorised here, then. Youre either rad fem or just a sily, fluffy Porn-defender. Good to know.

KRITIQ, have you read the jizzin face thread? It infuriates me that I am not a seen as a 'real feminist' because of the sexualpractices I enjoy, to be quite honest. There are some posters on that thread who DO come across as dreadful prudes, I'm afraid. I am not attacking feminism frrudishness, because I am a feminist, but fucking hell, there are some sad attitudes toward sex on that thread.

Feminism for prudishness

Ugh "funfemproporn types and real radfems" - REALLY?

We're still here are we? You're either a real feminist or you're not? And you wonder why so many young women are completely turned off by the idea of feminism?

That's it. Right there. We are allowed to have differing opinions you know.

Of course we can have differing opinions.

I don't really see how a person can support the porn industry and simultaneously claim to support feminism though. Surely the two positions are just too far apart and contradictory of each other to be reconcilable?

It would be a bit like supporting hate speech and racially motivated violence against black people whilst claiming to support the civil rights movement.

It won't be taken seriously.

yes we are - including me funnily enough.

Shoopaloop, that wasn't what I interpreted from the "jizz on face" thread at all. I saw some folks trying to explain the political, cultural and social context of pornography - particularly the increasing accessibility of porn and the fact that sexual practices that would have been considered hard core, extreme and/or niche even 20 years ago now feature regularly in "mainstream" porn. I also saw some arguing how this now more accessible and extreme porn, which relies heavily on the overt degradation of women (both actions and dialogue) has influenced men's and women's expectations of what sex should involve in the average male-female relationship.

I also saw alot of people trying really hard to argue that their choices in sexual activity weren't influenced by porn at all. Some suggested that it could be a turn on to know your partner was getting off on something, even if you didn't like it, or even that one could get turned on by being degraded. There was alot of poo pooing members who didn't think "anything goes" was fine as being pretty hung up.

Thing was, I didn't see feminists telling any women or men what they should or shouldn't do in their sexual relationships. I did see some asking folks to think about why certain practices might have become more common and ponder whether women in particular might be feeling "obliged" to say they enjoyed practices that they felt were degrading or demeaning just because they thought it was the "norm" and didn't want to be rejected or thought to be square or prudish.

Suggesting someone think about an issue isn't the same as insisting they have no right to have a view, do a certain thing or that they should be silenced.

Fairtrade advocates raise awareness of horrid conditions for children in sweatshops and hope consumers will think of this when making decisions on purchases. Anti-vivisectionists want folks to think of how animals suffer for cosmetic testing when we make a choice of shampoo. It's hardly a leap to imagine that feminists would like people who consume porn to think of the violence and abuse many actors suffer in hopes that people will realise they can get their rocks off without aiding and abetting another human's suffering.

And the problem with this is . . . ? Nope, I can't see it.

Good post Kritiq.
Perhaps it is about how soon those sexual practices crop up in a relationship. Before the influence of porn maybe the 'degrading' acts would have appeared in a relationship but only after you knew each other very well but now, thanks to sexual normalisation of these practices, and that is not just about porn, but about being able to meet people into any practice you care to name at the click of the button, then thay are becoming normalised to the point where someone, typically the man, brings them in a lot more quickly, which is not a good thing as out of the normal sexual practices (and some would argue normal sexual practices) should only take place in the context of a loving long term relationship.
How to get people to see this, especially young people, I don't know.