Attitudes to sex: is it maybe a cultural thing?

[WidowWadman]

As per AF's suggestion, I'll just repeat my thoughts from the facejizzing thread and we'll take it from there:

As an aside - I wonder whether it's also a wider cultural thing aside from female/male dynamics - as in, as a German, I find the overall attitude to sex in Britain weird - it's either being ridiculed or talked about in very negative terms, and overall it's all pretty taboo.

Would a feminist from the continent look at it in a different way? I've been living here longer than I've been interested in feminism, so didn't have these discussions over there really, but the general attitude to sex and talking about it seemed/seems much more open than over here.

beyond the 'obliged' factor there's also the fact that we are all very susceptible to the incredibly sophisticated pumping out of messages that surround us these days. that includes sexuality. so how sexuality is shaping up is going to be influenced by what messages are being pumped out. we are constantly being bombarded by supposed 'sexy' images that actually violent and likewise violent images that are being tinged with sex (thinking of the long lingering camera gaze upon the female naked rape/murder/torture victim for example).

and if you're bombarded with these images before you've even really begun to explore your own sexuality and arousal freely then they must have even more of a shaping influence.

and if you're constantly getting the message of a woman's sexuality being a vehicle of pleasing a man and submitting to him then unsurprisingly some women are going to think that is what is erotic, to be a thing that gives pleasure rather than a pleasure seeking and gaining thing. it's also a message that sex has to be in the mind re: the idea of turning him on rather than an actual physical, sensual, orgasmic experience due to one's own arousal and pleasure - which is back to the view of women not really enjoying sex in and of itself but needing to do it via a man's pleasure.

i can't see why any of this would be contentious tbh.

as a kid i had to enjoy turning 'him' on for my 'pleasure' out of sex and take my cues of how to behave, what to want etc from him. as a woman i learned i found my own pleasure and took my cues from my body and me and became a true participant and enjoyer of a mutual act. the pornified version would see women remain in that kid state forever. sure some people enjoy practices that others don't but it's not really sexual preference and enjoyment it's the enjoyment of acting out degradation or acting out violence and power. in a sense it's not sex at all but a psychological need or drive to reenact violence and power incorporated into the sexual act. there is nothing sexually pleasuring about having someone jizz in your face (to coin a phrase) but there's a psychological game being played and an enactment of disturbing power relations. maybe there's some 'ease' or something of giving into that role provided for one. dunno - maybe waffling now.

"Some suggested that it could be a turn on to know your partner was getting off on something, even if you didn't like it, or even that one could get turned on by being degraded"

I didn't see a single poster saying they're doing it who suggested getting turned on by their partner even if they didn't like it. That was only ever suggested by those who kept insisting that it is always a degrading practice.

WW I am on that thread and I don't think there is an insistence that it is always a degrading practice. That we be ridiculous, we don't have crystal balls!

The argument has more finesse. Certainly for me it is more about the fact that it is an re-enactment of an act that is intended to be degrading in porn. That it is an act which in porn eroticizes and reinforces the power dynamic of male dominance. Plus that fact that it is porn (which is violent against women and misogynistic) which has normalized this act.

I do not claim to know what goes on in individuals' lives to the extent where I can say anything about their personal private sex lives! How presumptuous and deluded would that be eh?! And I haven't on that thread. I haven't told anyone that they are degraded by this act or that it makes them a 'bad' feminist. That would be a really anti-feminist thing to do actually.

I believe and respect the women who say having their partner ejaculating on their face is anything but degrading. Why wouldn't I? As has been said about 100 times we aren't criticising people's choices.

This confusion happens a lot in discussions about feminism I find. If a feminist discussion, analyses why women might wear high heels, you will get a whole load of women taking the hump and thinking they are being criticised because they wear heels. (And some of them might have a go at the feminists for being catsbum-mouthed about fashion.)

And with sex people tend to take the hump even more because they pick up and run with the mistaken notion that they are being judged as somehow deviant/abnormal/etc.

But they aren't. At all. So it is a strawman, even if it is not an intentionally constructed one. It is also basically telling feminists to STFU with their analyses of society, because people are unable to not take it personally, even though it is not intended that way.

Also I have to say, I don't really like this 'did you see what was said on that other thread....' /quoting stuff from other threads type stuff.

I find these things can easily tun into forum Chinese Whispers (sorry if that is not an acceptable expression any-more, I don't live in the UK so not always aware of these things).

It can also look like having a go behind a poster's back.

I happen to be on both threads so I am able to defend my POV on the ejaculation thread, which has been misrepresented here.

The main problem facing feminism at the moment, I'd say, is the level of in-fighting. All this "you're not a proper feminist because xyz". I find it almost unbelievable that one feminist would say that to another. Haven't we had enough of being labelled and having some sort of patriarchal order to life? I really don't need someone telling me I'm not a feminist. I believe in equality for women therefore I am a feminist.

It's like on the last Reclaim the Night when some prostitutes who were marching were being called "sluts" by other marchers. Completely inappropriate and ridiculous and alienating.

We need MORE feminists, not fewer. Any woman who is in any way willing to stick her neck out and say that women need more rights is more than welcome in my book. Feminism shouldn't just be for the militant few who want to have everything run by their rules. You shouldn't need to check a list in order to see if you're feminist or not.

Some women want to analyse things. Others see things on a more practical level. Some see things personally. ALL of those are fine. And none of us should be berating other women for making those choices. As soon as you do that, you are trying to silence other women.

Porn and sex are always going to be massively divisive issues because they are so personal. Maybe we all need to take care when we're discussing these to not use pejorative language or make other women feel unaccepted.

The vast majority of people react badly when I say I'm a feminist. Not because they are against equality for women or because they are misogynists - but because feminism has such a bad name. I think we really need to change that.

Some feminists are more equal than others.

I see what you are saying, yellowraincoat, and why.

But what's the difference between 'infighting' and disagreement? We have to be able to arrive at conclusions and defend them, otherwise 'feminist' is just a label really without any bite.

btw I find it very sad indeed if any feminist called a prostitute a slut.

Disagreement is very different in that you can still be respectful when you disagree. I see a LOT of talking down to women who make different choices and arrive at different conclusions. To me, that's infighting.

For some reason it seems to mostly be about sex. Stay at home mums are never vilified these days (and rightly so) but show any support for stripping/porn and you're hung out to dry. You're an idiot and not a feminist.

but there's good reason for that - and no it's not just personal it's political (as in the very real power relations and how they feed into these areas). i personally can't roll over and say yeah porn, prostitution and stripping are fine and personal when the reality is that they cause massive damage to women and exploit large numbers of people who have already been exploited through sexual abuse and gendered poverty etc.

it's a pretty fundamental issue so of course it can't just be glossed over.

No-one is asking you to agree with them or thinking they're fine. Of course there are massive issues with porn, I think you'd be hard-pushed to find a feminist who disagreed, or even a woman, or a man with half a brain.

I just think that we can discuss these things in a way without labelling other women or telling them they don't belong.

Yellowraincoat, I think one of the main problems facing feminism today is the backlash.

But I do agree with you that in-fighting is supremely unhelpful too.

I also agree that there shouldn't be a checklist to be considered a feminist, but at the same time, I'm never too sure what to make of women who actively support misogyny whilst stating that they are feminists.

Feminism is a political movement, and like any other political movement, it has basic tenets which form the foundations of its values, principles, activism and perspective.

I do think that feminism is in danger of becoming a meaningless label. I nearly started a thread on this the other day actually. I think it would be good if feminism went back to its old name of 'Women's Liberation' - a much more accurate description of the movement.

It's hard to be 100% anything though, isn't it? I think to some extent we're all culpable of misogyny, just maybe not in such obvious forms.

I'd rather a woman was a wishy-washy more-or-less feminist who supported, say, rights to equal pay and equal access but didn't really care about porn, than someone who just thinks that the way things are now is fine.

Yellowraincoat I quite honestly don't see how a woman can support stripping, etc and think that is a feminist position.

I just don't see how that is reconcilable. It is like supporting slavery or apartheid whilst saying you are a civil rights supporter.

i agree and the analogy stands.

talking down and patronising is horrible to be at the receiving end of.
personally I find it such a difficult line to walk, whether as condescending patroniser or ever so 'umble patronisee. Probably both in the one statement.

But a patroniser will surely be so whether they are talking chicken keeping or feminism. It's not right to conflate the movement with certain personalities within it.

plus, people get angry. It's personal, it's political. Twice as much scope for anger there than in your average movement.

Yes, I think we are all culpable of misogyny - impossible to escape it IMO.

Not caring about porn is one thing (although it strikes me as a rather callous and head in the sand position for a feminist). Speaking out in defence of it is another entirely.

I don't think a woman should have to be concerned with every women's issue going in order to identify as a feminist.

I do think there are some fairly basic concerns of feminism that are fairly fundamental to the movement. Certain aspects of society have been identified as being violence against women - it seems reasonable to me to think that a self-indentifying feminist would be against those things (in principal, it doesn't mean she has to spend every waking hour being concerned with them).

It's not at all like supporting slavery in that no-one chooses to be a slave. I know that a lot of women do not choose to be strippers and are forced into it, but you can't just discount the ones that do.

Besides that, a lot of women aren't educated about these things. But by talking down to them or telling them they're stupid or patronising them all we're going to do is lose them and they won't be interested in feminism any more.

To me, it's possible to be feminist about some things and not others. It's not always easy, but it is possible.

Beachcomber "I quite honestly don't see how a woman can support stripping, etc and think that is a feminist position."

But is stripping = stripping? Do you not see that there is a difference between women who are pressed into selling their skin due to financial pressure, abusive partners, drugs, trafficking etc and women who, say, do burlesque stuff, because they like the aesthetic, and choose that line of work under their own volition?

Maybe they can't say that their stripping is a feminist position, but their stripping doesn't stop them being feminist.

If feminist is about liberating women so they can make their own choices, then it doesn't make sense to say that they can't make that choice and be a feminist.

This doesn't mean not appreciating that this area isn't without problems, but it's not just a black and white issue.

I don't recognize the OP's description of British attitudes to sex in my own (British) social circle - but then that's not surprising since it is a big generalization to make.

I was thinking about this term 'prude' and maybe I can say something here that didn't fit on the other thread.

We were talking about a practice which is mostly for the sexual pleasure of the bloke who's involved. In itself, that doesn't make it suspect from a feminist POV (I think), and of course, there's nothing wrong with being sexually aroused or emotionally satisfied with your partner's enjoyment.

But I didn't really get why people were making out that, if women don't enjoy this sex act, they must be 'sad' or prudes or not enjoy sex. I mean ... it's not controversial, surely, to say that getting pleasure out of someone else's orgasm may not be the most exciting and fulfilling sexual practice on the spectrum?

I don't know if this makes any sense ... but to me, if I heard a group of women talking about some sexual practice that is primarily about women's pleasure, and saying it was dirty or horrible, I would be really sad. And if I read a woman posting (as people not infrequently do) to say she was struggling to enjoy sex for some reason, I'd be sad about that too and I would do my best to respond with helpful advice.

If someone said they didn't really fancy a sex act that was primarily about the man's pleasure ... I'd just say well, don't bother then. You do what you like, you find a partner who likes it too, and that's fine.

I find it really sad that 'enjoying sex' seems to be being defined as 'enjoying your man having really good sex'.

I wouldn't like to see that label returned because I think one of the most difficult messages to convey about feminism is that it benefits men and women, just as the patriarchy harms men as well as women.

In-fighting within any political movement weakens the cause, but it is no different to any other because by its nature, politics involves people coming to it with their individual thoughts and ideas.

One of the biggest myths about feminism though is that to be anti-porn is to be anti-sex and from this flawed equation there are numerous counter-attacks from people who defend porn i.e its opponents are prudes, old-fashioned, sexually repressed etc. I've seen a lot of that on threads over the past week or so and not just on the feminism board, as well as a kind of myopic inability to separate the personal from the political.

I just don't get why porn and stripping and prostitution are the big no-nos. I lived in Saudi Arabia, I went there by choice, and to me, that's pretty much a bad thing for a feminist to do because of how badly they treat women.

I have never once had a feminist tell me I wasn't a feminist for having lived there though. And that was something I did on a very practical level, spending and making money in a country where women are oppressed daily so I was basically supporting that. It wasn't just me saying "I don't care about porn", a viewpoint that, on a practical level, has probably zero effect.

I think porn and stripping and prostitution are big no-nos because they harm women and promote a culture of misogyny.

It's not quite the same as living in Saudi Arabia, unless you are trying to tell us you required medical attention for your STDs and anal prolapse as a result of moving there?

I really don't get your point, Jericho. Is sex the only thing that harms women?

Saudi Arabia also promotes a culture of misogyny. Or are you just going on the attack? Because I was sort of hoping that we were managing to avoid that on this thread.

If feminist is about liberating women so they can make their own choices, then it doesn't make sense to say that they can't make that choice and be a feminist.

That's not what feminism means to me, because some people's choices have an adverse impact on women-as-a-group's opportunities and treatment, including theirs. What you've described is choice feminism