Attitudes to sex: is it maybe a cultural thing?

[WidowWadman]

As per AF's suggestion, I'll just repeat my thoughts from the facejizzing thread and we'll take it from there:

As an aside - I wonder whether it's also a wider cultural thing aside from female/male dynamics - as in, as a German, I find the overall attitude to sex in Britain weird - it's either being ridiculed or talked about in very negative terms, and overall it's all pretty taboo.

Would a feminist from the continent look at it in a different way? I've been living here longer than I've been interested in feminism, so didn't have these discussions over there really, but the general attitude to sex and talking about it seemed/seems much more open than over here.

So choice feminism isn't feminism? In that case I'd rather not identify as feminist.

I don't think porm etc are THE big no-no's.
But it's culturally accepted in a way that the lack of women's rights in Saudi isn't.

That in itself invites debate. There's no debate against those who think SA is all fine and dandy - they're just knobs.

Also what can I practically do about women's rights in Saudi?
but I can campaign against a lapdancing club opening in my town.

To me, choice feminism is a bit too narrow in scope.

It may benefit me to do zxy, but not women in general.

Presumably you lived in Saudi Arabia for some particular reason, yrc - work, maybe? Or did you sit down with a map of the world and a big pile of money and think "right, I can live anywhere I want, so where shall I choose to go? What regime shall I choose to support?". Surely not!

Anyway, I agree with beachcomber that a return to the label 'women's liberation' clarifies what feminism is about. It certainly isn't about supporting whatever choice a woman makes just because she's a woman as WW seems to imply. Not if that choice perpetuates the systematic oppression of women. Surely what we can all support is the idea of liberating women from oppression so that we have real, decent options to choose from.

yellow - sex doesn't harm women. Misogyny harms women. They are different.

Choice feminism says, this is the world, make it work for you, and if it doesn't work out, well that's your choice. Seems very rightwing, ifyswim.

That's not my point, SinicalSanta. My point was why are women daily derided on here for being unconcerned/not having the right opinion about stripping but I've never been so much as questioned about why I lived in Saudi?

I could have done something very practical: not lived there. But I didn't. And no-one (except myself) has ever questioned that choice.

I'm not trying to make this all about me and Saudi Arabia - it's just an example. No-one gets shouted down like women who support stripping/porn/whatever. And I really think that's a sad situation.

There are a million things that we do every day that are harmful to women somewhere and I'm sure most of us are guilty of having performed some of those actions.

Jericho, I know that sex and misogyny are different, but I think you've totally missed my point.

I'm saying, I don't get what your Saudi Arabia analogy is doing. Misogynistic cultures and microcultures exist all over the place - porn exists in a misogynistic culture; Saudi Arabia has a misogynistic culture. That doesn't mean women who live in Saudi Arabia are to be judged or criticised - surely the reverse?

Yellowraincoat the sexual exploitation of women at the hands of men, is considered a big no-no because it is extreme violence against women.

Because it is the real life manifestation of women's lower status within society.

Because it is sexual, gendered violence against women that is tolerated by society at large.

All three of the above are fundamentally misogynistic and contrary to the basic tenets of feminism.

Sexual issues are always going to be big issues because they are areas of extreme violence against women.

But yellow, you said sex 'isn't the only thing that harms women'. And I'm saying, sex doesn't harm women at all. Sex is great. But misogyny does harm women.

For me feminism is about ending male supremacy and liberating women from male dominance.

Sinical - I'm curious. You say that 'choice feminism' seems 'very rightwing' - is there a suggestion that this is incompatible with feminist views? Surely being a feminist doesn't automatically make you a left-winger? Or does it?

(Realise this is a bit off-topic, am not derailing. Just interested as this is something I mull over often.)

I know why it is A no-no. Not why it is THE no-no.

There are other issues. It is not all about sex.

My point, Jericho, was that by going to Saudi Arabia, I was supporting, however tenuously, their regime. I didn't HAVE to go, no-one made me.

I don't know where you got that I was criticising women who lived there, but I'm more than happy to just leave that analogy, which, as I've explained, wasn't specifically about Saudi but about how sex seems to be jumped on every 5 minutes while other issues are frequently ignored or at least not as controversial.

Sex can harm women, as you made clear with your anal prolapse.

Well there are few countries that aren't misogynistic to some degree.
You may as well ask why is no one questioning you why didn't you start a global revolution.
Whereas it's a personal choice (that word again!) whether to go to an ldc or not, for example. Scale, I suppose

yellow, saying that sex harms women is like saying that if I take a big stick and go around hitting people, it must be because wood harms people and we should cut down all the trees.

There is misogyny and misogyny though isn't there.

We're talking about a country where misogyny is enshrined in law.

Jericho we're arguing the same point.

Feminism fights violence against women, right?

It is not feminism's fault that so much of the violence that is meted out to women is sexual.

I blame the patriarchy for that one.

Manatee Definitely not< i don't think feminists can only be left wing.

But I see feminism very much as a collective movement, which ties in more to lefty politics. Maybe I'm conflating 'generic' right wing views with libertarianism, which is very much concerned with each individualism.

argh bad grammar

Btw, I think an important point to make her (re. Saudi Arabia/porn/prostitution) is that, if a woman makes a choice, and that choice has a knock-on negative effect on women in general, that doesn't mean feminists should all gather around to judge the woman for her choice. I went to the Stop Porn conference, and there were speakers who had been working in the sex industry, and no-one was anything but supportive of them and humbled by their bravery in coming to speak about what they'd experienced. There wasn't any judgement.

I'm just saying this because I think there's a common misconception that feminists who're anti-porn, are primarily antagonistic towards the women who're working in porn - and I don't think they are, I think they're antagonistic to the misogyny supporting porn.

The point is though that there are so many other issues besides sexual violence. But no-one seems to get quite so hot under the collar about other issues that affect women.

By that, I mean that, yes, there are other heated debates, but never with the frequency, spite or venom that you see on threads about sex.

'There is misogyny and misogyny though isn't there.

We're talking about a country where misogyny is enshrined in law.'

Sorry, I don't understand. We may be arguing the same point (I'm very pleased if so), but I don't follow this.