Attitudes to sex: is it maybe a cultural thing?

[WidowWadman]

As per AF's suggestion, I'll just repeat my thoughts from the facejizzing thread and we'll take it from there:

As an aside - I wonder whether it's also a wider cultural thing aside from female/male dynamics - as in, as a German, I find the overall attitude to sex in Britain weird - it's either being ridiculed or talked about in very negative terms, and overall it's all pretty taboo.

Would a feminist from the continent look at it in a different way? I've been living here longer than I've been interested in feminism, so didn't have these discussions over there really, but the general attitude to sex and talking about it seemed/seems much more open than over here.

yellow, did you see the separatism thread? Or any of the ones about SAHMs?

They get incredibly heated.

I suspect people talk about sex a lot because we're human and sex is a shared interest for most of us.

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive. They have to be covered when outside. They are not allowed to leave the country without a male guardian's permission. They do not have the right to keep their children if they divorce. Husbands can beat and rape their wives and female servants.

And so on and so on and so on.

It sort of makes our misogyny look a bit of a doddle to be honest.

I don't understand the Saudi Arabia thing either. Sorry, I am trying.

I don't think women who choose to live in Iceland are better feminists than women who live elsewhere

You presumably didn't go to SA in order to enthusiastically support the regime there?

At a stretch I suppose one could say that you may have benefited from the regime there, but that would depend very much on why you were there and what you were doing. And that wouldn't make it your fault that the regime is in place, nor your responsibility as one lone woman to dismantle it.

I've never seen a feminist attack a woman yet for defending SAHMs.

I don't know what you mean by separatism.

A lot of people boycotted South Africa under apartheid.

So why did I not boycott Saudi Arabia?

And why am I not even questioned why I did?

That is my point.

yrc, feminism is about analysing and acting to liberate women from male oppression, not about judging and policing other women

I still don't get the Saudi Arabia thing.

I don't really get why you think it's comparable to porn etc?

And no, funnily enough, it wasn't the feminists attacking SAHMs! Other way around!

The Separatism threads were really good - they started out being about communities of women who'd chosen to live alone, and ended up talking about whether women-only spaces are good or bad, and whether women can ever really distance themsevles from teh patriarchy, and so on ... definitely worth a look if you want to see a non-sex bunfight. I mean there is a teeny bit of sex referred to but it's not the main subject by a long way.

Is it actually useful to only look at left/rightwing? The removal of choice or campaigning against choice seems very authoritarian and oppressive in itself. I don't think that this is made any better by it being - to your mind - leftwing.

When looking at political positioning I think it makes more sense to use the 4 quadrant model as proposed by the political compass

Anyway, making choices for yourself doesn't mean that you accept the oppression of women who haven't made that choice. I don't think it's impossible, e.g. to work as a prostitute by choice and oppose the exploitation of prostitutes at the same time. Dutch and German prostitutes, e.g. have even started union-like movements campaigning for better protection from exploitation by pimps, rights to health insurance and social security etc.

Why should follow from women deliberately choosing to expose their skin or work in porn or prostitution that they think that the exploitation of trafficked women, drug addicts, poor women etc is ok? They're different issues.

Prolesworth, where did I say it was?

I don't know how I can put the Saudi thing any differently to my post at 15.04. There was a huge outcry when Queen performed in South Africa. There is nary a peep when people go to Saudi Arabia. Why is that?

Oh lord, that makes it look as if I mean the SAHMs were attacking feminists ... I'm posting drivel today.

I meant to explain, there have been threads in this section discussing whether or not being a SAHM is a valid feminist choice, and my perception was that mostly, the people who post regularly here reckoned it was. But it got quite heated and interesting. In fact, all the issues surrounding care of children/careers/money can get pretty heated.

"There was a huge outcry when Queen performed in South Africa. There is nary a peep when people go to Saudi Arabia. Why is that?"

Because people generally don't give that much of a shit about women being harmed.

That is my point, Prolesworth.

But I never get any shit about it from feminists either.

But women get loads of shit for saying they are unconcerned about porn.

I don't get it.

Sad but true, proles.

If you mean that Saudi Arabia should be sanctioned by other nations in the way South Africa was. Criticizing an individual woman for going there doesn't seem a particularly useful thing to do, although if you did indeed have a totally free choice about where to live I would wonder why any woman would choose to live in Saudi Arabia, yes.

yellowraincoat I suspect that you are not questioned on living in SA for a variety of reasons - as has been stated it is not the job of feminism to police other women.

Your own individual personal choices are for you to examine and explore. There isn't really a political discussion to be had about one individual.

If you want to explore it you may find others will be interested in a thread about what it feels like to live in an extremely oppressive society such as SA. I have never experienced it so I don't have much to offer on the subject.

If it really bothers you, why not campaign about it? It does sound like an issue you are passionate about - that is great.

I don't think anyone is saying that, just because others are more touched by one issue, you're not allowed to want to talk about something else.

But other women ARE policed by feminism. Not wanting to thread about a thread, but there was a lot of judging on both sides on that ejaculation thread.

I'm not really up for debating Saudi, that wasn't my point.

it's just more seems more in harmony to me, WW

I certainly don't advocate removing anyone's choices.

But I'd be happier in a world where the demand for commodified women's bodies was weaker. I'd like it to be easier to pay one's way through one's astrophysics course by doing something more useful than enabling a wank, especially when the 'collateral damage' can be so devastating.

We could have a political discussion about the Queen visiting Saudi Arabia because she is a representative of a population.

Her going there and wining and dining with the misogynists would be like an endorsement of that society on behalf of the British people.

I'm not going to have a go at you though, because you are not the Queen, and I have no idea what your motives were for being in SA and how you behaved when there.

Are you saying only non-feminists are allowed to judge?

I didn't say that at all Jericho and I have no idea where you got that from.

I am off now.

judging strangers on te internet isn't the worst thing that happens under the patriarchy.
thats going to happen on mn, unfortunately.

i imagine a fair bit of anti liverpool fc judging goes on over on man u dot com

x with jericho

I'm off too - to perform the radical feminist, patriarchy smashing act of......making an apple tart.

I'm judging sal for cross-posting right now.

I think I must be off too, the mention of apple tart is making me hungry and the thread is making my head ache.