How can a parent let their child be beaten by an OH

[JugsyMalone]

I just don't get this. I am a single parent to 2 boys.

I would never be with a partner for one second who hurt my kids. I would batter the bloke back and be straight down the police station. Even if I was mortally afraid I would be out of the house with my kids at the corner shop or anywhere public asap.

But it's always the boyfriend who batters the baby to death. Yes, he's the nutter. But what is wrong with the mother?

I agree with both of those posts saf.

Shows hoe deeply ingrained these ideas are that it didn't occur to me to ask where Ithaka's father was in all of this. Of course he may have moved heaven and earth but the point is people just don't imagine that men will step up when it comes to children, that's why that question is so rarely asked.

It is interesting to reflect on why this man is a bastard and there could be any number of reasons, but for me that is not the most pertinent question.

The OP is about why people, women sepcifically, marry, support and enable bastards and I find that an interesting issue and one that is seldom debated.

I know that on a feminism thread, the instinct is to defend the women's behaviour, but perhaps some women's behaviour is indefensible in relation to their children. Or does is that too uncomfortable to contemplate?

I think you are unlikely to be able to have that debate on this feminist forum with much success or actual discussion, ithaka.
Although I also think it is a reasonable and valid question to ask.

I think I'm just going to return to real life and continue to deal with the fall-out, and remain bewildered, without an answer to the OP's question.

Why do women stay with bastards?

Because they are scared, stupid, dependent, selfish, timid, a million reasons. I'm not sure what thinking about that achieves though?

i think several of us have already said there are women who are cruel to their children, selfish etc. this isn't about blind defense of women. it's about how women are seen as more encountable for their children's abuse than the very person perpetrating it and it's fair to say that that is because we are conditioned to have higher expectations of women, especially mothers.

ithaka it may be uncomfortable but if your dad didn't do everything he could to get custody of you after that then he was just as culpable as your mum in standing by and letting it happen.

i think we've looked at quite a lot of reasons why a woman may be able to do this and ways to help women who are willing out of these situations. we've also acknowledged that those who will not leave despite support, housing, protection and warnings need to have children removed from the home.

ultimately though the real question is why do men in our culture in the modern day still feel justified in beating and abusing women in their own homes and how do we change that.

ithaka
The OP is not about women specifically but the thread has turned into a discussion as to why women do this because in the main it is men who do the abuse.

I suggested Stockholm Syndrome, specifically with regard to domestic violence, and you should read about it because it would help explain why people stay with the abuser to the detriment of themselves and their children.

I knew a woman, with eight children, who managed to escape an abusive bastard. He tracked her down and killed her (stabbed in a frenzied attack) in front of the children. They were then fostered out and separated as a family.

That was many years ago and still that behaviour continues. Berating women for the abusive they suffer from men doesn't help the situation.

normally if we want to stop a behaviour we look at things like education, strong sanctions as deterrant and punishment, systems of monitoring etc etc not well why do the victims put up with it.

it's false economy anyway because one woman gets rid of him, he finds another woman and on and on. stopping men is what will stop this not a succession of ten women having to go through and get him out all over again.

"I know that on a feminism thread, the instinct is to defend the women's behaviour, but perhaps some women's behaviour is indefensible in relation to their children. Or does is that too uncomfortable to contemplate?"

But still the person who is actually perpetrating the abuse is the real bad guy, surely?

There was a thread on here the other day complaining about a short sentence a man had received for something he had done to a child. Someone asked the question, how was the mother involved with him, why did she leave her child with him? The article said nothing about the mother being implicated, or there being any question about her knowing, or that she had been charged or anything. And the man had done appalling things. But still the question was there - why did the mother let this happen. It shows a real attitude that as SAF says women are held to higher standards of behaviour than men, and a rather scary idea of what men are like. That the question why did he do it, is not even worth asking.

it's like saying the answer to pedophilia is for each individual child to report and not put up with it and why on earth do they not tell someone etc. we don't say that - we say we have to monitor these people once identified and protect future potential victims from them.

men who are habitually abusive and violent towards women need dealing with. it's a pattern of behaviour that repeats and leaves a string of victims behind them at great cost to society.

www.zimbio.com/Domestic+Violence+Truths/articles/54/Traumatic+Bonding+Stockholm+Syndrome

Here's a link but there is loads of stuff on the internet explaining Trauma Bonding.

I think it is a valuable discussion to have in a feminist context. But not as to why women specifically support and enable abusers, but why society as a whole (ie women and men who are not abusers but stand by and do nothing) condones and supports it.

I know that Lundy Bancroft has something to say on the matter, I will find the quote in a minute.

'it's like saying the answer to pedophilia is for each individual child to report and not put up with it and why on earth do they not tell someone etc.'

I don't like your paeophilia analogy because it infantalises women. Women are not helpless, like children. They are adults, with adult responsibilities for their own behaviour.

I do not hold women to higher standards of behaviour than men, but I do believe parents have greater responsibility for their children than anyone else. That includes mothers responsibility not to take up with men who are cruel to their children (and also for fathers not to marry wicked stepmothers).

'I don't like your paeophilia analogy because it infantalises women. Women are not helpless, like children. They are adults, with adult responsibilities for their own behaviour.

I do not hold women to higher standards of behaviour than men, but I do believe parents have greater responsibility for their children than anyone else.'

Yes.

So when a father abuses his children, why does everyone stand around saying "why did the mother let him do it, how could she"?

Look towards the press to see how differently men and women who commit the same crimes are treated in the media, and the media reflects societies views, whether you like it or not.

How could anyone stand by and allow the abuse of a child to go unchallenged? Especially a parent?
How could they not want to have the abuser punished and removed from any contact with the child ever again? How could they think a child might deserve it? How can they not want to see a time when abuse of a child is as unthinkable as eating them.
Sod this focus on it being the mother, I'd be asking the same thing of any of the adults sharing the house or in regular contact with the child.

But it's not asked of fathers, in situations like ithaka was in. It is down teh mother mother to sort it all out, no-one looks towards the father.

How could people do that? Well I don't know , there have been lots of suggestions and reasons given on the thread as to why it happens.

I find it harder to understand how someone can hurt a child in the first place. Again, that is surely the worse crime?

"The OP is about why people, women sepcifically, marry, support and enable bastards and I find that an interesting issue and one that is seldom debated."

I disagree that it is seldom debated.

It is far more often debated, fruitlessly, than the more aposite and necessary question, "why do men abuse women and / or children and how comes they get away with it most of the time?"

I've got nothing to add to the already excellently explained reasons.

If you want to stop women marrying, supporting and enabling bastards, then you have to stop our education system, legal system and culture in general supporting and enabling men to be bastards.

Then these women wouldn't be able to marry, support or enable them, because a) there would be far fewer of them to go round and b) women wouldn't have been educated to accept their behaviour as tolerable.

I think most people know the answer and the answers are given on the thread. Most women do leave or protect their children. Some for various reasons can't.

Here is a video a girl put up on youtube recently of her father's conduct. The mother says now - 5 years later that she felt unble to object. She seems very complicit in it on the video

Where in our education system do we teach boys to be aggressive bastards and girls to bend over and take it?
It's never been in any curriculum, policy statement, code of behaviour or establishment I've ever worked in. On the contrary, there has been a huge amount of input on supporting both sexes towards equality of opportunity and access.
Perhaps we should limit breeding and parenting to approved cohorts that have passed rigorous testing? No BYB?

Er, actually a survey carried out last year revealed that a third of all secondary school girls had been sexually assaulted at school.

I think that gives us some indication of the seriousness with which our education establishments take the issue of female dignity and equality.

My mother was one of these parents.

My stepfather punched my sister in the face when she was 13, knocking her unconscious. My mum was with him for 20 years.

And in sex education lessons, PHSE, etc., rape myths are still being perpetrated. Bullshit like girls leading boys on and therefore inviiting rape, is still being tolerated without proper challenge. Boys are still being taught that "consent" to sex means girls not saying no, rather than girls actively participating in sex.

Most anti bullying policies still don't even recognise sexual bullying as being something which exists. Where it happens, it's not dealt with. The terms "slag" "slapper" "slut" etc., are freely used in secondary schools where the term "nigger" would result in an exclusion. Boys send girls porn on their phones and it's ignored. They post sexually abusive stuff about them on Facebook and their school pretends it's nothing to do with them - even though the only reason the boy knows the girl well enough to do that, is because they sit in the same classroom.

Our education system has miles to go, to educate girls to expect respect and decency from men and to educate boys that respect and decency, is normal and not "pussy-whipped" or "gay" (dealing with homophobia can also be a bit ropey).