misandry doesn't exist

[MitchierInge]

not in a sort of homologous (if that's the word?) way to misogyny anyway - society just isn't that evolved yet

Just a quick correction to my own post above. The definition I first quoted was for "misandry", not for "misandrist". For clarity here are the comparable definitions from The World Book

misandry: n hatred of men

Ever since someone mentioned power structures it's been on my mind. Somehow it just doesn't gel with me that only men have power structures and women have none. That just doesn't seem right. Look I'll admit I may not quite grasp what they mean by power structures, but I like to go off what I see and hear with my own eyes, and today I found something which I thought was a really good example of how women can have power structures, and as much as this can be a good thing, it can also be a bad thing too. Of course it's the same when men get too much power over women, but since we all agree on that anyway I thought it would be interesting to share a link I found about a woman who wants to expand the definition of rape so that once a woman has a drink she would be deemed to not be able to give consent, even if it was her idea. I do not want to live in a world where men are accused of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who happened to have a drink, I find the whole idea enormously offensive to both sexes.

I'd be really interested to hear what people think about this, and hope that people can see it for what it is, I'm not really interested in convoluted explanations involving the patriarchy - although who am I to stop that - it's a free world, but I'm most interested in what people who can read this without applying filters or agendas - what some of the mum's on here think, and what women who still actually like men think.

The "All-Sex-is-Rape" Team is Coming to Your State
Dear Lilly,

Attorney Catherine MacKinnon once proclaimed, "Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent." Her writings argue that in a patriarchal society, women are incapable of giving consent, so all heterosexual sex is rape. For years, critics dismissed her has a nut case.

But now, MacKinnon's minions are working to assure that she gets the last laugh. The process began 9 months ago at the federal level with a radical overhaul of definitions of rape:

1. In April, the US Department of Education released its "Dear Colleague" letter: www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.html

1. In December, the Centers for Disease Control issued its National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey: www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

1. Last week, the FBI announced its new reporting definition of rape: www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1?csp=34news

The ideologues are working to achieve their "all-sex-is-rape" goal through two steps:

1. Remove the requirement of the sex being "forcible," and substitute the idea of the sex "lacking consent"
2. Decree that if alcohol passes between a woman's lips, she is rendered incapable of giving consent...even if the drunken bash is her idea!

Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers discussed this issue on Tuesday's Mike McConnell Show: www.wgnradio.com/shows/mikemcconnell/wgnam-mike-mcconnell-1-10-12-uncut-b,0,1176295.mp3file?track=rss

SAVE's Domestic Violence Legislative Project consists of state-level citizen lobbyists working on their 2012 legislative agendas. If you would like to stop expansive definitions of rape from being applied in your state, participate in our monthly teleconferences. The next call is Feb. 21. Email [email protected] to join.

Sincerely,

teri

Teri Stoddard, Program Director
Stop Abusive and Violent Environments
www.saveservices.org

Why would anyone object to the defintion of rape being sex without consent?

Unless of course they were a woman-hater.

What's your argument here Lily?

Women hold virtually no power in the world. Economic, social and political power is overwhelmingly in the hands of men. Just because that reality gives you feelings of discomfort doens't make it untrue.

Your post is more evidence of misogyny, not non existent "misandry".

"what some of the mum's on here think, and what women who still actually like men think"

Transparent.

Speaking of agendas you know that SAVE who you are quoting is a mens' rights organisation who base their advocacy on the myth of false allegations of domestic violence.

And Chrstina Hoff Summers who gets a mention is an anti-feminist who claims to be a feminist. Because anti-feminists just love doing that for some reason.

"Why would anyone object to the defintion of rape being sex without consent?"

Well, you would, Nyac.

rape = penetration by a penis without consent

What's your point?

The difference between the US and UK definitions isn't really the point. Ecclesvet was attempting an idiotic gotcha. Trying to prove something, I'm not sure what.

There's always someone from the peanut gallery ready to whizz in and deliberately misinterpret what's being said.

It wasn't a 'gotcha'. You said here that the definition of rape should simply be sex without consent; I remembered you saying elsewhere that that alone shouldn't be the definition.

We don't need an agenda or filter to read your C&P Lily.

It comes with plenty of it's own.

'McKinnon's minions having the last laugh', anyone?

Exactly, a gotcha. Taking what I said absolutely literally when it was just a brief, not expanded, remark in an internet discussion, and in fact given that you know that I've argued (and the law - I suppose i now have to spell out - UK law supports me) that rape requires a penis.

It's not necessary to provide a huge definition of every single word in an internet discussion, and the fact you leaped on mine and twisted my words to make a non-point doens't reflect very well on your style of arguing.

The discussion was about consent specifically, not about the whole definition of rape.

I don't understand why so many people are horrified that feminsits want to do something about rape. Like stop it.

Everybody should support that.

It wasn't a 'gotcha', or 'twisting your words'. It was just pointing out an inconsistent/hypocritical message.

Except you didn't. Only if you take what I said super-literally and put your own spin on it - that it's possible for a woman to physically to commit rape (it isn't, a woman can however commit sexual assault, although it's rare) - could you draw that conclusion. And you know already that that isn't my definition of rape.

Do you think that women commit actual rape ecclesvet? Not as an accomplice but real life rape, when rape requires a penis.

That sort of attitude is exactly the same as the misandry = misogyny position - the false logic that exists which says that because men (as a group) are guilty of something then automatically women must be too. It's a way of disguising male crimes against women.

"Only if you take what I said super-literally"

Ah, I should assume that you don't mean what you say, got it. The onus is on the reader to substitute or add words into your posts to make them more consistent, OK.

"Do you think that women commit actual rape ecclesvet?"

Yes, of course, given that my definition is purely non-consensual sex. There was a big thread about this a while ago. Not on anywhere near the same scale though.

I havent really read tbh ,too much bickering.

Surely misandry does exist, there are people out there who truly dislike men as a group so how would that be described if its not misandry?

People use misandry as the opposite of misogyny.

But they're not opposites really.
As misandrists are a few lone souls carping from the sidelines in the main, while misogynists have actual real life power, numbers and a structure that supports them.

But men aren't collectively discriminated against, or the victim of gender based crimes.

Where men are discriminated against (please see Basil's link in the Louis De Bernieres thread; Tony Porter on the man box) it is the flip side of misogyny.

Misandry was a term coined up by MRA's, who object to feminism, in an attempt to discredit what feminists have done. It's a term chucked at the feminists, in an attempt to make us all look like the straw feminist trope that the media perpetuates. The truth is, they're directing their anger in the wrong direction, because they spend so long listening to the media, they forget to take a deep look at what feminism is really about.

On a side note, I'm sat here chuckling to myself; Google Chrome's spell check recognises the word "misogyny". "Misandry", however, is underlined as a spelling mistake.

Women do it too is popular logic with anti-feminists ecclesvet.

Did you realise you're coming across like one?

A quick google to clear up some of the misandry origin debate...

1871 ? misandrous ? ?In many of the cephaopods already mentioned, the only specimens ever captured belonged to the female sex, and seemed to pass, like the Amazons of old, an experience which may be termed a misandrous life.? [John George Wood, The illustrated natural history, Reptiles, Fishes, Molluscs, &c., Volume 3, London: George Routledge & Sons, 1871, p. 365]

1871 ? misandrist ? ?We cannot, indeed, term her an absolute misandrist, as she fully admits the possibility, in most cases at least, of the reclamation of men from their naturally vicious and selfish state, though at the cost of so much trouble and vexation of spirit to women, that it is not quite clear whether she does not regard their existence as at best a mitigated evil.? [From review of novel ?Blanche Seymour? (anonymous), The Spectator, London, Apr. 1, 1871, p. 359]

1878 ? misandry ? dictionary entry on the prefix; ?MIS, MISO.?1. (Gr. fitaelv, to hate ;) in a number of compounds, as misagathy, hatred of the good; ??[Charles P. Krauth, A vocabulary of the philosophical sciences, Sheldon & Company, New York, 1878, p. 770]

1885 ? misandry ? ?She could not account for it, and it was a growing source of bitterness, of misogyny as well as misandry.? [?The Crack of Doom,? Blackwood?s Edinburgh Magazine, Edinburgh, Scotland & London, England, Volume 138, Jul. ? Dec. 1885, p. 289]

1888 ? misandry ? ??nor shall I speak of philanthropy, nor philandry, much less of their opposites, misanthropy, misogyny, misandry, for the last of which terms the synonym Miss Anthony is now in common use.? [From: Announcement of the 15th dinner, on Apr. 26, 1888, of the Six O?Clock Club (reporting an accredited speech from the May 24, 1888 14th dinner); text reprinted in: Frank Lester Ward, Glimpses of the Cosmos, Vol. IV, G. Putnam?s Sons, New York, 1915, p. 128]

1888 ? misandry ? ?? a little misandry from some constitutional man-hater ?? Considering the source ? the Woman?s Christian Temperance Union ? it is reasonable to suppose that the author employing this early use of the word was a woman. [?W. C. T. U. Notes. - By The Local W. C. T U.? from Christian Standard (Cincinnati, Oh.), The New Era (Humeston (Io.), May 16, 1888, p. 8]

etc...

Oh right , okay

Googling Saraha's list of sources only brings up one entry. Here's where those sources that Saraha quotes are listed. An MRA, anti-feminist blog:

unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/2011/02/misandry-word-its-origin.html

Misandry exists in the sense that it is possible to cobble two latin roots together. It doesn't exist in the sense of describing a real phenomenon, and it is also a word that came into popular usage after 1990 when the MRAs started bandying it around, and a whole lot of people who were desperate to claim "women do it too" jumped on it.

If people want to climb on the MRA bandwagon and help promote that agenda then so be it, but they should take a look at who is sitting next to it.

"who they are sitting next to" even.

Oh my god, look at their "history matters" page:

:unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Lunatics.

I don't really think it matters which site it came from, FWIW, I simply googled origin of the word 'misandry' and that came up, I didn't negotiate the actual site. I could spend a great deal of time researching if I could be bothered. I think the evidence is there, that the usage isn't something that is relatively new, is all.

I don't understand why a term, that is also in the Oxford dictionary, listed as the hatred of men, isn't valid. Do you know something the Oxford dictionary doesn't? If so, what? Are there no women that hate men? With respect, I don't understand why you get to chose the meaning of certain words, and ascribe your own personal views to them. In the Oxford dictionary, misogyny means hatred of women. All pretty simple to me. Which word would you replace misandry with?