misandry doesn't exist

[MitchierInge]

not in a sort of homologous (if that's the word?) way to misogyny anyway - society just isn't that evolved yet

[DixieFlatline]

I agree. Good post, Ava.

[BigDeskBob]

"The problem with distilling whether it actually exists is that it's impossible to separate weariness and resulting anger at hugely oppressive structures that men have created against women VS irrational dislike of men for no reason. Because in the world we live in, dislike of men is very, very rational because most do nothing to dismantle those structures."

Ava, this is very true.

[Daddy89997]

Ava5, you sound like a typical misandrist person. What oppressive structures have men created? Who is oppressing you? How do you "dismantle" those structures? You think it's rational to dislike ALL men because some men have done bad things? And by the way even if your dislike of men is "rational" it's still misandry.

[Ava5]

The problem with distilling whether it actually exists is that it's impossible to separate weariness and resulting anger at hugely oppressive structures that men have created against women VS irrational dislike of men for no reason. Because in the world we live in, dislike of men is very, very rational because most do nothing to dismantle those structures.

Only in a magical world where men never did anything to hurt women on a pervasive scale, would actual misandry exist. And I don't believe that it would , because women are overly accomodating towards men even in this oppressive reality. Women don't have the drive for mindless dominance over the very people they give birth to in great suffering.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Yep, that kind of Christianity would be quite hard to reconcile with the idea of female equality. I'm sure you're aware that many many people around the world are not that kind of Christian, or any kind of Christian, or indeed any kind of religion at all. Should we all have to submit to your beliefs?

You might want to read a book called Testosterone Rex by Cordelia Fine, which has a lot of interesting information about testosterone.

[Datun]

firefury14620

If even half of what you say is true, it sounds horrific. And my heart truly goes out to you

It sounds as though you are coming from a place of dreadful, but nonetheless, individual horror.

We cannot make an analysis based on one individual's experience.

Otherwise, men, say, who suffer at the hands of women will analyse women as abusive as a class. Which simply isn't the case. And I'm not saying this is who you are, I'm merely using it as an illustration.

Statistically men perpetrate violence and sexual violence upon women. Not the other way around.

Culture allows them to do this. Women are oppressed because of their biology. There is no intrinsic reason for women to be thought of as inferior. And to be subjected to the kind of abuse that they suffer. 117 million girl children aborted on the basis that they are female is the clearest demonstrable fact of women's perceived inferiority.

And yes, the western world has progressed. But this is the world in which we live. And there are still desperately unequal situations. We still have FGM in this country for instance.

Kudos to you for taking your mission to those countries that have it worse. But not everyone is in that position. We fight where we can. We donate where it is needed.

But please don't dismiss feminists. Many women here have been quite dreadfully abused. Mumsnet is a place for those women to share, offer and receive support.

You can't dismiss people's experiences on the basis that someone has it worse. That's not how it works.

[PencilsInSpace]

Shit, dreadful cross post.

I have to say I am confused why you are posting on a navel-gazing thread about whether misandry exists when you obviously have much greater issues with male violence to deal with.

Maybe start a new thread?

[PencilsInSpace]

Poor men! They should do something about these terrible injustices they face, given they have the pig's share of the power and all.

What campaigns have they started? How can we help?

I'm devastated that you are considering not taking feminism seriously, however will we cope?

Please give us the link to the refugee charity you are working with, I'm sure many of us would be happy to support it

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

Well, before I disengage because I have reservations about your post - it may be true, it may not be, but you don't come across as coming from a very happy or balanced place (unsurprising if what you say is true), can I just ask you whether you've ever stopped to wonder why violence - both that perpetrated against women, and that perpetrated against men - is overwhelmingly gendered? The perpetrators are overwhelmingly male (in the UK, 90% of people imprisoned for violence are male, 98% of those imprisoned for sexual offences are male). No-one is saying "all men are like that" - of course they aren't. But the minority that are cause an enormous amount of pain and suffering, pain and suffering which is, to a large extent, tolerated by society. (Rapes by men on women are rarely prosecuted, rapes of men on men are rarely reported because of social pressures on men not to.)

Anyway, like I say, going to disengage now because whether you are a fantasist or not, you do not come across as mentally well, and I don't think this conversation is likely to do you any good.

[Xenophile]

I believe you.

Feminism isn't bullshit.

Please continue to take out your anger at your life on me, if it makes you feel better. Having been through similar experiences, I can relate to your anger and fear and hatred.

That's a genuine offer btw.

[Xenophile]

Btw, is Haiti in Africa?

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

I have a feeling that our self-styled "girl" will get a bit of a shock when she grows up and goes out into the adult world, and discovers that prejudice exists whether or not you try to arm yourself against it by reading a few MRA websites and trying to curry favour with the type of man who reads them. That is if the poster in question is actually a girl, rather than an MRA having a bit of a laugh, or indeed a labrador.

(BTW, it is highly possible this poster is a girl. Sexism can be ignored at a young age by pretending to be "one of the lads" and dismissing the experiences of women who report that life isn't so straightforward for them - it's a combination of "I'm alright Jack" and currying favour with the class with more power. In fact, some women go through their whole lives like this - some, but not many.)

[ThymeLord]

*more, not flipping not!

[ThymeLord]

motherhood, parenting and feminism go hand in hand

Exactly! Couldn't agree not.

[Xenophile]

It means that that poster believes we're a bunch of old farts, I believe.

And motherhood, parenting and feminism go hand in hand, as you might one day find out. You seem to think that the mummies can't be feminist. Wrong!

There is a simple expedient for getting around the equal pay act btw, it's called a non disclosure contract. Plus, of course, in law, PoC also have equal rights which also doesn't play out in the reality that grown ups live in.

[ThymeLord]

You aren't seeing the connection between this thread and a website for "motherhood and parenting tips"?! Oh dear.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Of course women are equal to men in today's society. Unfortunately not everyone else thinks so...

"I'm part of the generation that's really saying they're being discriminated against so I'm kind of on the inside." what do you mean?

[M0stlyBowlingHedgehog]

Well, given that to my knowledge the US has no legislation guaranteeing equal pay for work of equal value, I hardly think you're in a position to be quite as sanguine as you seem to be about equal pay. And as for unequal pay being a myth - well, my equal pay claim (and that of 50 or so of my colleagues) is going through the courts at the moment after our employer's own pay audit showed a significant (10%) and systematic discrepancy, but refused to do anything about it. So from where I'm sitting, it doesn't seem very mythical, it seems all too bloody real, specially since I'm a single parent who has to keep the mortgage going and food and clothing paid for, same as my male colleagues.

And that's before we even get started on your frankly fucking offensive and erroneous claims about sexual assault.

[Datun]

firefury14620

It's a hair splitting argument.

1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

You calling people who are concerned about rape 'whining' is a perfect illustration of why it happens.

[Xenophile]

You patently didn't know what neo-liberal meant, and if you're 16 your "work" is bollocks.

Try harder son