Anyone else feeling wifeworked over by Christmas (and DH)?!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, this is a bit of a whinge thread. But I can't be the only one. Eleven months of the year I'm not that fussed but at Christmas I do care. Selfishly. For me. Because I don't actually enjoy having no decorations, a messy home and no Christmas meal.

Do you find that it's worse at Christmas? I think it's partly the expectations that come from outside, and all the tradition - it makes it that much harder to get away from traditional expectations both of what I should be doing and what, in total, should be done for a good Christmas.

Btw, if you can get us out of this pattern please tell me how: since the Wifework thread a while back, I've been doing a lot less and DH has been doing a little more, and the mess has been driving me nuts. We'll muddle along until I crack and point out x hasn't been doing in weeks, and could he please get his finger out - he'll insist he does do it/was about to do it, all evidence to the contrary, and we'll row. Then he'll admit he hasn't done it, but he'll get better. And then he doesn't do whatever it is, though he'll often do something else, something obvious like hovering. And I will feel 'why should I do this job, he said he would'.

It is a crap pattern.

Anyway, right now I have a tree and nothing else, and I am not feeling full of Christmas cheer because there are half a dozen things he's said he'd do that still aren't done. If I do them it undercuts the whole point of trying to get him doing stuff; if I tell him (again) it's possible three of them will get done ... but for the love of God does it have to be like this?

Whinge with me, and remind me Christmas is not about the little stuff, please?

fwiw, in the team that I manage the gender split is 5 males/15 females. I have noticed the stark difference in stress in the last week. The men are continuing in the same manner - the women are stressed, taking the odd half day here and there ( away from their professional tasks which they will have to make up for at some time later), and leave messages for me to say why they aren't around at partucular times. IT's all to do with Christmas.

so, no LRD, as an answer Christmas isn't about the little stuff.
hth, but I suppose it doesn't.

No, it does help a bit.

I'm not slacking off work, as it happens - or rather I am, hugely, but since I study and I'm ahead of schedule it doesn't matter. I still find it annoying, though.

Of your team, I wonder how many of those men who're still nobly working away are simply expecting someone else to come up with the goods once they knock off for the holiday?

Well, quite.

Oh gosh, I don't know.

Does your DH care about all the little things? Does he want the tree and decorations and everything all Christmasy?

If he doesn't care, then it's not really fair to be angry with him for not doing things he doesn't care about one way or the other.

If he wants all that stuff but wants you to do everything, that's entirely different.

I think the problem with Christmas is that people's expectations are generally very home-based, it's all about a decorated house and fancy meals, etc, things that are unfortunately seen as the women's preserve. So if you have problems throughout the year, you'll probably have them at Christmas even more.

What solution have you been trying to implement for your wifework problem? there is no one way to deal with it -- perhaps we can come up with some different ideas?

I am definitely feeling it. My main wifework complaint is not housework related but more that I am seen to be responsible for the school run/childcare as default and I have been doing things to address that....

But Xmas - well apart from put the tree up, DH has done bugger all! Oh - he ordered his Xmas present . I am putting him on wrapping duty tonight!

dreaming - hmm, I don't know. The thing is that I do care, and I do a lot of compromising for him, so I am not really sure it is unfair to expect him to do a bit.

The thing is, Christmas for me is still Advent for him (he's on the old calendar, where Christmas is Jan 7th). This means he fasts from meat and dairy for five weeks. As you can imagine, that is quite a faff for both of us. I do feel he could afford to put a little effort into helping me make Christmas day nice for both of us. My impression is that he does like the tree and all once it's done, but I will ask him how much he cares as it is probably more my thing.

I was trying to solve the Wifework thing but doing less. He's read the book , and thinks what I should do is not do so much, then he'll notice, and I should tell him when he misses stuff. But it just doesn't work. Every time his default reaction is to say he does do whatever it is, and I have to admit I react badly to that because he is just flat-out lying, as he will admit later on. It is infuriating looking at something not done and having him say he does it.

panto - ouch. It's annoying when you have to say 'now you need to do the wrapping up', isn't it?

Why do women, especially feminists, end up in relationships with such lazy/selfish men though?

Same here, LDR. I decorate the house, write the lists, buy the presents (for around 33 - not including 2DDs and DH), wrap the presents, put bows on the presents, make the Christmas cake, ice the Christmas cake, do Christmassy stuff with DD1 etc. ....this goes on for a few days until I snap. I shout at DH making myself look completely unhinged and he does lots of jobs in a short space of time. And that's it, until I snap again a few days later.

Last night he was late-night shopping. Obviously buying gifts for 1 bloody person (me) is too much. It pisses me off that he could've been at home doing 'stuff' if he had only been organised earlier.

But I am a SAHM so part of me thinks 'well, he works so hard, really I should do all this...'. And he does work hard (too hard, but that is another thread) - and he does help out, and he is lovely, but he's just so goddamn inefficient. And I hate turning into a nag. Why he is so blind to all the things that need sorting, I do not know! Can you imagine living in such a state of blissful ignorance? It must be bloody great!

Sorry, rant over! So in answer to your questions - yes, it is worse at Christmas because all of the extra jobs fall on my shoulders, and no, the little stuff matters not one jot in the grand scheme of things - but you know that already, don't you?

Merry bastard Christmas

I don't think it is 'especially' feminists. If I posted in AIBU, and explained how much DH and I each do, the consensus would probably be that he does masses and I shouldn't expect him to do more.

I think for me, getting more and more into feminism just makes me care more about it. A few years ago I'd just have been happily picking up the slack, wondering why I got tired. In fact, before I started doing less to see if he'd do more, I honestly had no idea that we weren't both doing certain jobs - I just assumed every sane adult did them as a matter of course, so presumably he was doing them. (Things like cleaning the sink or the loo).

DH could be a lot better, but I think I'm mega-careful because I'm now worrying that this is the sort of stuff that needs sorting now before it gets any more unbalanced. Non-feminists would I'm sure tell me to get a life!

Cross-post.

Oh, rainy, that sounds so shit and you're telling it with humour ...how do you manage?

It could almost drive you to believe that crap about men being 'evolved' not to see dirt, couldn't it?

But not quite lazy fuckers.

dreaming makes a good point. DH LOVES the idea of me doing Christmassy stuff with the DDs and doing Christmassy baking - but he wouldn't care if the house was a tip. That is an extra load of pressure I put on myself I admit.

So I want to do both (organised, clean house & Christmas stuff) but he would happily live in a less than pristine house - so I can't blame him too much...

in orthodoxy all the xmas deco stuff ithat make christmas chrisymassy iyswim is not so important (one side of my family are orthodox) though repeated exposure to western culture will change that

I was raised this way, and so i am meh about gifts and trees and cards BUT i do all of it to the extent i feel comfortable cos it is my childrens'/dh's/ils' culture and i want them to be happy

fasting is important though, if he is a believer it is sin-o-rific to not fast, and this really is non negotiable. He can have fish, though iirc.

having said that, in my childhood, we did xmas twice - can you do one and he does one? To celebrate it together i mean.

He needs to make more of an effort though, everyone in a marriage should be providing for the other's happiness, though i am not the best role model here at the mo

wish i could be more help

LDR, you should hear the shouting coming from our house on occasion! DH is very stoic in face of such demented behaviour and usually tucks me up in bed with a or in severe cases, ushers me gingerly into the other room with . And does several very competent jobs while I take a breather Mumsnet. He's not all bad.

But rainy, if you like a clean house, why shouldn't everyone pitch in to help you get it? I'm sure you do things for him too.

I never understand why compromise is made such a virtue here - it always seems to mean women being told they can't expect anything more.

chibi - thank you. You are helpful. It is nice to hear from somoenne else with experience of orthodoxy. He has fish, and the priest gives him dispensation to have meat one day, so when we visit my parents on Boxing Day he'll have turkey. I do get that it's non-negotiable, but it's still a faff and my thinking is, if I do that for him, he could afford to do some cleaning for my sake. We do effectively celebrate Christmas twice, but we're trying to work out what we'd do with children and so on - but he does get all into Christmas presents for his mates and wrapping tehm up beautifully, so it's not that he just doesn't care or doesn't feel comfortable with English Christmas.

I will talk to him about tree/decorations and see what he says, as I may be getting it wrong.

Good to 'hear' from you btw.

Hmm, okay. For Christmas, have you ever put it to him the way you've said it here? Sort of like: Look, Christmas is a big deal for me, I know you don't care about it so much, but it would really mean a lot to me if you could help make it a special time (or something).

Then you can see how he responds to this. If he still doesn't do anything, well, that's not very impressive.

I know ideally you wouldn't have to say anything, but sometimes you have to really spell things out for people.

On wifework generally -- I think you need a better system, one that works for you both as individuals.

I am much cleaner than my DH -- he is just less fussed about it, and also really doesn't notice until things get bad (he is honestly just not very observant, he will sometimes leave the house with two different shoes on!)

So we have divvied things up so that while we do an equal amount of work around the house, he does the most obvious things and I do the more detail-oriented things. So he does dishes, bins, mopping, also paying bills and DIY, while I keep on top of general cleaning and laundry. I keep track of supplies and what we need while he does more of the actual shopping.

It sounds like you are trying to split each task 50-50, when you might be better off splitting the tasks between you.

But to be honest, none of this will work if he's not willing to make an effort.

You do need to sort this out now, before you get a FT job out of the house and have kids, etc.

Oh sorry that's long -- fellow academic here

notjust - that sounds lovely! And pretty funny if your ex has suddenly realized, too.

dreaming - don't call me an academic, I'm not there yet (and you'll jinx me! ). And no need to apologize for length.

I have told him it's all important to me - to be fair, that's why he compromises on stuff like coming to my parents, which I know he's not mad keen on.

The thing with splitting tasks is that when I specifically ask him to do something, he'll do it. But he won't do anything spontaneously. So there's a very small number of tasks he can manage, like taking on bins when they're full. He insists the rest rely onn some kind of arcane judgment call he can't possibly manage - and I cannot begin to communicate how absurd I find this.

'if you like a clean house, why shouldn't everyone pitch in to help you get it?'

My DH does indeed do a lot more cleaning that he would normally, because he knows it makes me happy.

I guess I would just feel bad either demanding or expecting him to do it, because while I like the house to be clean, it's not way up on my list of priorities. If I'm going to ask him to put himself out, I'd rather it be for something that I really do care about (which he does as well, taking care of DS in the mornings).

I think our relationship has a good give and take, we each do things for the other that we wouldn't normally, to make the other person happy.

But I don't like the idea of expecting him to do those things, because I wouldn't appreciate being expected to do things that I'm currently doing voluntarily to make him happy.

He does pitch in. But he doesn't just DO it. I have to ask. Then I ask again. Then I ask again. Then I write him a list. Then I nag a bit more. And then comes the shouting. Then I make him a new list because he has lost the old one. And then he does it.

x-post

Well that IS absurd. Hmm. Let me give that a ponder.

The OP could have been written by me. And I understand utterly what Rainy says. But what is this wifework thing?

That's exactly what happens here rainy.

It is so frustrating. I said to Dh last time, that when he gets angry because I've asked him to do something, it feels like he's punishing me for asking. Because it would be simpler and less stressful for me simply to do it - and that way lies me doing everything.

dreaming - TBH, I think that the fact that what I do for DH, though I do it gladly, is to do with non-negotiable dietary issues, makes it feel a bit different.

bigblue - 'Wifework' is a book, which puts forward the argument that in our society, wives are expected to do all sorts of small jobs and to act as unofficial organisers and PAs to their husbands, a lot of the time. The author gets into all this research on how much women and men do in the home, or by way of organizing things for each other, and found women do a load more than men, but that both men and women have huge difficulty even realizing the imbalance is there.

There's a long thread about it, but it's a good concept ... she talk about how women are judged for untidy houses/ungroomed children in a way most men are not, and masses of interesting points.

I find it really helpful because outside of MN, lots of people seem to think that housework is too boring to be a feminist issue, whereas it seems on here that it's pretty important day to day stuff for most of us.