Anyone else feeling wifeworked over by Christmas (and DH)?!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, this is a bit of a whinge thread. But I can't be the only one. Eleven months of the year I'm not that fussed but at Christmas I do care. Selfishly. For me. Because I don't actually enjoy having no decorations, a messy home and no Christmas meal.

Do you find that it's worse at Christmas? I think it's partly the expectations that come from outside, and all the tradition - it makes it that much harder to get away from traditional expectations both of what I should be doing and what, in total, should be done for a good Christmas.

Btw, if you can get us out of this pattern please tell me how: since the Wifework thread a while back, I've been doing a lot less and DH has been doing a little more, and the mess has been driving me nuts. We'll muddle along until I crack and point out x hasn't been doing in weeks, and could he please get his finger out - he'll insist he does do it/was about to do it, all evidence to the contrary, and we'll row. Then he'll admit he hasn't done it, but he'll get better. And then he doesn't do whatever it is, though he'll often do something else, something obvious like hovering. And I will feel 'why should I do this job, he said he would'.

It is a crap pattern.

Anyway, right now I have a tree and nothing else, and I am not feeling full of Christmas cheer because there are half a dozen things he's said he'd do that still aren't done. If I do them it undercuts the whole point of trying to get him doing stuff; if I tell him (again) it's possible three of them will get done ... but for the love of God does it have to be like this?

Whinge with me, and remind me Christmas is not about the little stuff, please?

Okay, would you say that in your mind you have made a sort of quid pro quo whereby you are making an extra effort because of his fasting so he should make an extra effort at cleaning and general Christmas cheer?

Do you think he would accept this as a quid pro quo?

Would he think that it's only fair for you to make these efforts because he is doing X for you? (is there some other X he's doing for you?)

Does he actually appreciate the extra efforts you are making because of his fasting? What are the extra efforts?

I guess I'm trying to work out whether what you have is a communication problem where he is, maybe, a bit dense and would respond better if you had clearer communication or whether what you have is a selfish and lazy husband problem.

Wow LDR I think I need to get that book and wave it under DH's nose, because that's exactly how I feel. I completely see your frustrations over having to ask your OH to do stuff - I do the same and feel my DH just rebels against me asking, which only makes things worse.

Yes, the personal is the political and all that.

I don't know what the answer is. Me personally, I just trust that dh will do as much as me. Not just with housework - with dc's school and nursery, with family, with organising holidays etc.

And he does do as much as I. Expectations? Shared outlook? Respect? Don't know but I certainly wouldn't burden myself with picking up the slack for another person's commitments to family life.

Gosh, dreaming, I don't know. I'm going to go out for a walk and have a think about it - thanks for getting me thinking.

bigblue - it is a good book - sadly not I think as well written as some and there's plenty to disagree with, but it is realy interesteting as a theory.

yama - I think the isssue is that by not picking up the slack, I end up living in a home that depresses me. I do really strongly believe I have a right to live (and work, because I'm a student and work at home) in an atmosphere that's pleasant, not a tip. It's not precious to expect it - if I were single, it'd be easy. And that is the real problem, isn't it?

Yes, it is a real problem. I get het up about the amount men do in the home because I want my dd to end up with someone who respects her. My Dad didn't/doesn't treat my Mum like a skivvy, my brothers don't treat their wives like skivvies so it really depresses me when I read countless threads on here or meet women my age and younger who live like this.

I don't blame the woman by the way, well not exclusively. I don't know who to blame. There is a solution and MN is great for allowing woman to see that they don't have to live like this.

Hi LRD, sorry to hear things haven't much improved. I can honestly recommend the rota system I instigated back on the other thread. We've been doing it for around 3 months now and it's great, I only have to cook a couple of times a week, ditto laundry and washing up. All the rooms in the house get cleaned once a week and I only have to do one of them! Best of all, not only is the work shared out, but the nagging reminding is too - if somebody goes to cook and the washing up is still sitting there, it's there in black and white who's supposed to have done it and the cook will go and rip them a new one remind them Something to consider for the new year maybe?

Christmas though ... yes there's all this extra work and it's the sort of stuff that reflects badly on you if it's not done. I will admit I'm doing most of it and sucking it up but it's not as bad as it was last year when I was doing all the normal housework as well.

Thanks both. It is good to post about it (hope I don't post too much, I'm aware it is a bit of a theme!), because it reminds me there isn't some simple solution I'm missing (except to the surrendered wives, of course!).

I am going to try a written rota. I think we both resisted it but it needs doing - now I just need to write it! And it would be a good New Years Resolution.

FWIW, we live in a tiny place that should practically keep itself clean - it's just if we don't sort this now, I think we never will.

I do feel a lot better now - instead of going for a walk (or rather, as well as), I've cleaned out the pennies jar and bought a fiver's (!) worth of greenery on the market and it is sitting in the sink soaking up water and looking all Christmassy.

LRD: I, too, love Christmas and have a DH with a 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude towards the holiday; his dysfunctional family either ignored christmas or it was a toxic, drama-fuelled mess. For me, it's magical. It's the only time of year I get homesick, and I want a tree, carols, presents, and twinkly lights from about the 20th for at least two weeks. Well, not the presents for two weeks. DH has worked out that I like to do something pretty special for Christmas in our family, and he's on board. he's done half the food stuff, and a lot of the social-organizing -that said, I have done everyone's presents (HOW?) and while we haven't sent cards this year, I feel guilty about it whereas he wouldn't have even considered it, I expect.

Regarding the cleaning, it seems to me you're in a situation where you're doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. My DH was, and is, a bit messier than me, also we care about mess in different ways. What helped was having a "this must be done!" list (inspired by this list) taped to the fridge, and, I shit you not, space for the jobs to be ticked off and initialled. If it was my name up there doing all the work, and his on none of the tasks, he couldn't ignore that actually, he wasn't pulling his weight keeping the house a clean and safe place for our child, and a pleasant place for me to work all day.

Do NOT let this go, and do NOT have a baby with a man who hasn't got into a 'every week, whether you think it needs doing or not, you clean and mop the whole house' mentality. It's ridiculous and bizarre that he hasn't worked out that the loo gets cleaned by someone once a week, and so he should do it every other weekend. It's absurd, and he needs to face that.

it IS extra work making the list, but at least he can't ignore what's (1) taped to the fridge and (2) physically demonstrating to him both how much needs to be done to keep a place okay and how much he's not doing, and you are.

Oh here's an idea --

I seem to remember your DH is a techie of some sort?

Can you agree on a rota, and then program his computer to remind him what to do?

That way he gets reminders but it's not you doing the nagging.

If he can't manage even with all that, god help him.

aaand in the time it took me to write my mega-post, everyone else said what I said.

YAY ROTAS!

oh x-post

Sounds good! But do the rota together

Oh yes, sit down and say: "how often should we clean the bathroom? What does cleaning the bathroom entail?" (eg: inside AND outside of loo, sweep AND mop the floor) etc. Then say "right, that's an every-week job. Maybe a weekend? Right." Then add that job to the 'every week' checklist.
Somethings are "every night" like "all dishes washed, all surfaces clear and wiped, dishwasher on" and "DS's food ready to go to daycare" - it's really helpful to agree on what needs doing when.
We're tidying today so our cleaner can get in tomorrow- that's how bad it's got in the run up to the end of term!

dreaming that is an excellent thought!

Thank you so much. If he can do that, it'd be brilliant because it's the constant reminders that get me down so much.

black - I'm so sorry you get homesick, that's rotten. Holidays to tend to do it.

I love your description of Christmas - so evocative. It sounds lovely.

I actually celebrate in reaction to the way my parents did it. I love some things about their Christmas (like the smell of pine tree and orange peel because we always had clementines in our stockings, and like listening to carols from kings while we did the tree). But most of their Christmas involved my mum getting into a huge hectic stress and losing her temper. It's tough because she is quite unstable (I think she had rotten depression from being a SAHM and she could get quite violent), but then in retrospect my dad was awful and did - still does - do very little to help. So I really care about it being calm and low-key as far as possible. We have had lovely Christmas days together and it is very special, but this year just not having a clean house is getting me down more than it used to.

I know DH has been very enthusiastic about Christmas day in previous years and we both love buying presents together and so on, so I think I need to talk to him and get a sense of whether he's dragging his heels because he doesn't really care about some bits of it. The more I think though, it's really just the bog standard cleaning which always bothers me and bothers me more now because I want it to be nice.

Lots to think about.

Oh blackcurrants, that's an excellent approach.

Glad you like the computer idea! If you can, have the conversation together while actually at the computer with the reminder program open, so he can input them right then and there. Otherwise you may find yourself reminding him about the reminders for weeks

It never gets old - The Politics of Housework

Not sure when men being lazy arses who think that it's women's job to slave for them got turned into women expecting too much, but it's not true. It's also not a coincidence that Christmas is a patriarchal festival where we get to worship the son of god but women have to do all the work.

What you're experiencing is sexual politics in action.

Not such a good link, try this one

In our house i just never took over responsibility from Dh for 'his' family and friends. We were older when we met (28 and 35) and he'd been doing his own family perfectly well without me for all his adult life so he still does it. Now that i know 'his' friends and family well and they're also my friends and family i will suggest ideas (if i have any) for them but the responsibility still lies with him.
This applies to birthday presents through the year too... i REFUSE to feel responsibility for my Dh either remembering or forgetting a present or date and i will NOT do any for him.
The only thing i agree to do is wrap for him because i enjoy it and he hates it, but i make him ask nicely every year and not just assume and i do demand bribes to do it

Cross-posted ... you know, I am so glad you used that example black, because he just doesn't get why you would ever sweep or mop a bathroom floor. Admittedly ours is quite literally the size of the bathmat with room to open the door beside, but it took me months to realize that when I said the floor needed cleaning, he thought it meant put the mat in the wash.

On the one hand I get where his attitude comes from because he was at boarding school from age 7 and then at a university where you live in rooms that are mostly cleaned for you. But it really surprises me the amount of stuff he just doesn't know. He has no idea why you would ever clean a kitchen sink, for example, because after all soapy water goes into it all the time.

Thanks thunder - will forward him the link.

maybe - yes, to be fair, DH does his own family and friends' presents, I wouldn't think to do them. Except possibly his mum, I sometimes send her something on my own behalf because I love her - but I don't do that for him, I do it for her.

Luckily feminism got to me before I got into any thought of doing his christmas cards/presents!

Looks like we've split it equally - I am reading Wifework now and in day to day life, things are less fair!
We have bought and wrapped presents individually for our sides of the family. I have written cards to friends of his who have become my friends. Looks like his friends I don't know as well won't be getting a card . What annoys me us that these friends will probably judge me, not him! He did cards to his side of the family.

We decorated the tree together. Today I stuck cards and holly up - I'm a sahm and baby was napping, DH out at work.

I've also ordered the food (see above) but DH will cook it.

Well, mind you, if they're friends of his who've not become your friends, I guess there's a reason for that!

Ah ... just got to the 'ALSO meaning' bit of that article thunder and realized someone has quoted this before on here and I was nodding along last time!

We've had the 'but you do it better' debate.

I think the problem with getting all high minded and theorizing (which is what I tend to do) is that he can argue his way out of a paper bag but it doesn't change a blind thing. Reading that article shows how very predictable all the arguments are! It shouldn't be necessary but it's good to keep remember it's not just me.

I'm not feeling it, because I had a massive meltdown at dh quite recently. He emailed me on Tuesday offering to come home early so we could write the Christmas cards together and get them posted by 5pm

I don't want to be in the position of having a meltdown at quite a nice man whom I love, but it did work. I'm sorry I don't have a better solution but hope you get it sorted.

It's amazing that these arguments are going on forty years after that article was written. It's one of the reasons I like posting it, because it shows how long men have been directly resisting women's attempts to make the division of domestic labour fair.

Yes. And I think it's fascinating that the wording is so close to what I and other people on here and RL friends come up with, isn't it? She completely nailed it. And once you see the same arguments over and over you do lose patience with them. Or I do. Which is the idea obviously!

LePrude - I have done the meltdown, insofar as it's in my nature to meltdown, which it isn't, because I have a horror of turning into my mum and because I know from her that sometimes if you go down that route, next time the meltdown has to be bigger ... and bigger ...

Things do change with us. I hold out hope more things will change. I don't come on here enough to say 'yay - I did what you said and it worked', but it does happen, I promise.