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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

anyone feel uncomfortable about Military Wives Choir?

263 replies

Bennifer · 19/12/2011 13:20

That?s it really. Although I like the idea that the wives are raising money for charity ~(and that we won't have an X factor number 1), there?s something a little unsettling about the military wives angle I can?t quite put my finger on. Am I overthinking this?

OP posts:
pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 21:24

i'd quite like some help with all the associated crap i do have get done, sgm. Grin but thanks for offer...

it would probably help if i got off mn, tbh. Blush

StewieGriffinsMom · 21/12/2011 21:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 21:31
Grin i've been out for lunch, i'll have you know.

with another control freak. we had a whale of a time comparing personal idiosyncracies. it started with a confession that she had made a fool of herself in public about three weeks ago and was still having a real problem getting over it. (despite the fact that no-one excpet her noticed, obv)

i neatly solved it by suggesting we draw up formal policies and mandatory training for what she was attempting to do when she made a fool of herself.

thus neatly solving her humiliation dilemma by foisting the blame onto someone else (an entire organisation in fact), and giving her something productive to with any leftover angst. Wink she's going to start drafting the policy.

my work today is done. Grin

[really must get a job emoticon]

at this rate i'll end up on babynames.

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 21:33

Yes I have read the thread, I don't like posting without doing so.

I am aware they are adult women, they have a million & one things to do as every mum has. The difference was they found the choir an extra "something to do" that was totally different to anything they'd done before. They fitted it in around their eveyday lives. It took their minds off their OH's situation for a few moments, and many found/rediscovered a joy in singing that made them feel good. Many were new to the area/base and found it a great support to make new friends a bit more easily than they might have done.

It wasn't /isn't for everyone but I find it very sad that the fact that they DID get something out of it is seen as a demeaning thing, if you are suggesting I was being patronising then that is your interpretation.

The over-thinking remark was with regard to the groups title -I'm sure they discussed many options, it appeared so from the programme, but most were too "clunky" they were happy with that, obviously, being able to think for themselves.

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 21:39

Pizza I was not intending to patronise you or anyone, & I'm sorry you have taken it that way. Sad

I'm also sorry that you have had such a negative time with the military, I'm not taking away from that one iota just commenting on the programme & the feelings & comments I've had from other MN-ers who are also Military.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 21:41

no-one has suggested the choir is in any way demeaning, i don't think.

several people have expressed uncertainty about the title, but personally i see it as a nod to the pr exercise. if it wasn't for a specific event/ tv show, then it would almost certainly have just been 'chivenor choir' or whatever. ergo the 'military wives' thing was a choice, to be deliberately promoted as such for this particular cause.

and it's raising money.

my angst is entirely to do with the reality of being branded a 'military wife' rather than any pr-driven choir exercise.

apologies if that wasn't entirely clear.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 21:44

i've had a fab time with the military. both as a serving member and as a wife. it's had it's low points, obv.

but i am under no illusions as to how it pans out through a feminist lens. Grin

thank you for the gracious apology though. we x posted.

i haven't even seen the programme as you can't get it here. Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 21:44

I find it very dubious this assumption that all military wives must be the same, and that one thread that has some military wives saying they're not comfortable has to be put down as 'over thinking'. I can see why some people would want to be defined by their husband's career if it's a career that so affects their lives - but others would not like it.

I know you're saying it 'isn't for everyone', BB, but it seems like you're saying other people can't discuss it or why they found it upsetting/uncomfortable?

FWIW, I very much agree with the point about 'blitz spirit'. I posted on the AIBU thread about the choir about this, but I know quite a lot of people, men and women, who're in the military and several of them are really, really conflicted about the current situation and feel it was not why they joined up. Some of them have very strong idealism about British government and were really upset when we went into Iraq. I know this can be a contentious point but I'm sure they're not the only military people who feel that way - and I think it is that much harder for wives (and perhaps husbands?) who seem to be expected to have no moral scruples, or even, fewer moral scruples than the men who're serving.

nomadwantshome · 21/12/2011 21:44

Don't know if this has been said but maybe military wives is a good name for publicity. Very zeitgeist. Lots of money in the coffers. Am I being a bit judgemental?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 21:45

Sorry, that was to BB at 21:33 ... I see what you're saying better after the other post.

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 21:47

I'm sure the reality of being a military wife is every bit as ghastly as it is shown to be & then shitloads more.

You're right it is /was a PR excercise but with 2 good charities benefitting, so at least that's better than usual PR /TV set-ups I suppose.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 21:53

lrd, it is interesting that the majority of mn people assume that 'the military' (one homogenous mass) are all in favour of any given conflict (after all, they are all bloodthirsty killers who joined up to kill people etc etc). there seems to be so little realisation that 'the military' are to a man and woman as unique as you or i. sure, the training kicks in and to some extent you do as you're told, but to hold a genuine belief that people aren't conflicted about this stuff seems surreal to me.

civilians are allowed to go home and moan about bad policy decisions in the office, but apparently the military never feel that way. weird. of course they do.

i had a very wise 'literature of war' tutor once, who was interested in that very dissociation between making the initial patriotic decision to join up (and essentially waive your right to have a moral judgement), and later internal conflict wrt specific tasks that you might be asked to perform.

the other students on the course could not grasp this at all. i put it down to them being very young undergrads, but i see the same thing on mn and elsewhere all the time. it's fascinating.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:03

Yes, I have noticed that. I got some really nasty comments once for posting that a friend was feeling seriously conflicted - it was all 'oh, he signed up, he knew what he was getting into, if he doesn't ahve the balls he should be ashamed, etc. etc.' And the poor lad was all of 18 when he started, it's not like most 18-year-olds can be expected to be completely level-headed.

I find it quite worrying atm that a mate of mine, whose job is recruiting for the army, is meant to assess how good at 'compartmentalizing' people are, as it is an essential skill. I'm sure it is, but it does seem terrifying to me (though obviously that is why I run screaming at the idea of a career in the military, but still ...).

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/12/2011 22:06

Does compartmentalising mean that they can kill someone in the morning and go for a beer with their mates in the evening?

No need to worry about supporting the military in the Women's Rights section.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:09
Grin i used to recruit. that's my other fantasy phd right there. identifying gendered practices in recruiting and basic training.

compartmentalising ends you up in therapy. well, the over-spill does.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:10

Yes, I think it does thunder.

I find it scary because it sounds like exactly the same 'skill' those men have who are violent to their wives but 'a lovely guy' to everyone else.

I don't mean that anyone who can compartmentalize and do violence in one context is necessarily going to be violent in another, but I can't help find it disturbing. And the examples my mate gives when she's recruiting really are sometimes nasty - probably about 90% of the people she deals with are perfectly nice but the other 10% would frighten you.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:10

it's called 'back in time for tea and medals' thunder Wink

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 22:11

I'm sure there are a range of emotions & conflicting views on the politics of the job they do within every echelon of any armed forces.

Personally although I often disagree with the politics that send our forces into conflicts, I see that as different to acknowledging the hardships of the deployed and their families.

nomad not judgemental really given the coffers of the RBL & SSAFA are the ones getting a lot of the benefit! (& the record producers natch)

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:12

i know this is a truly random de-rail, but it's similar to use of prostitution too. 's'ok with a whore, but you wouldn't do that with yer wife. (or even tell yer wife)

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:13

yy, bb for sure. which is why i have no particular issue in this choir context. other than ssafa and the rbl provide some of the support that the govt should be providing through othermeans.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:14

'Personally although I often disagree with the politics that send our forces into conflicts, I see that as different to acknowledging the hardships of the deployed and their families.'

I agree. I think it's really important.

pizza - is compartmentalizing the same as cognitive dissonance? I guess they must be very close if they're not the same thing.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:15

oh, alcohol.

that's decompression right there, that is. and bonding. and... urgh. i could spend hours pondering compulsory drinking in the military.

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 22:16

v similar, i think. not really thought about it before, but i think one can be deliberate, whereas the other one is more subconscious? operate similarly though, protection of self from unfortunate truths etc...

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 22:17

Oh gaawd don't get me started on what the govt should provide...Xmas Grin whole other rant .thank god there are charities like that.

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/12/2011 22:18

I think that's a very accurate analysis LRD and I don't think that prostitution use is a derail either pizza. A lot of armies have organised prostituted women for their soldiers e.g. comfort women in Japan, or massive prostitution industries in the Philippines and Korea for US soldiers.

I'm just yelling at the TV because they appear to be having an awards ceremony for soldiers. WTF are we doing celebrating imperialism? Sickening.