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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

anyone feel uncomfortable about Military Wives Choir?

263 replies

Bennifer · 19/12/2011 13:20

That?s it really. Although I like the idea that the wives are raising money for charity ~(and that we won't have an X factor number 1), there?s something a little unsettling about the military wives angle I can?t quite put my finger on. Am I overthinking this?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:19

Oh, that makes sense pizza, if one is deliberate and the other not. I do TBH find it worrying that people should be picked for their ability deliberately to do that.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:21

thunder - and (hazy memory here of something SGM or someone on here said), isn't there that thing about how rape in times of war is part of the 'subdue the enemy' process?

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/12/2011 22:28

Well that's generally how it's promoted as if rape of a woman or girl is just a way of one man to make a point to another. But if you look at it more closely, the men aren't really at war with each other, they are declaring war on women. Including using rape as a weapon during their wars. Most victims of war are women and children.

yousankmybattleship · 21/12/2011 22:28

Sorry, I haven't had time to read all this thread, but I do think the OP is being slightly insulting the the women in the choir. They may be doctors, solicitors, mothers, who knows. I presume they are all strong women. What binds them together though in this case is the fact that they have a husband or boyfriend who is a serving member of the military. That is why they formed the choir and that is why the name of the choir is fitting. It does not negate all the other things they are. Why look for a problem with something that has provided a lot of happienss to a great many people and been a great source of strength and pride for these women?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/12/2011 22:37

Erm, if you did bother to read the thread, you might stop being so rude to the military wives who're posting on it, mightn't you?

thunder - yep, exactly ... something I found awkward, though not sure why, is a mate saying he felt he had to fight to 'liberate the women of Afghanistan' and therefore I 'had' to support him - does that make any sense? I can't put my finger on why it annoyed me but it had a certain 'knight in shining armour' arrogance to it and I felt like that about the 'prince of peace' line in the song, too - it's talking about these men using a term that usually describes Jesus, and it does seem so out of place. I know the words were from the women's letters but what the image it creates of the soldiers really makes me feel uncomfortable.

If I were horribly cynical, I'd suspect that song was actually intended to divide opinion (the least helpful thing for women in need of support).

NormaStanleyFletcher · 21/12/2011 22:42

Re decompression when you come back.

I am told that they basically used to chuck them in an area with a load of alcohol, to fight, cry, rebond whatever. For.7 days. I think they have found that 2 days is enough now, and just keep them in,transit (cyprus) on their way home.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 21/12/2011 22:45

Not sure the show tonight was.celebrating imperialism. It was.more about individual acts of courage and compassion

Bossybritches22 · 21/12/2011 22:48

Sounds eminently sensible to me, possibly not long enough for some but better than nothing. The mind-shift must be horrendous & in some cases as we have sadly heard , very destructive.

EdithWeston · 21/12/2011 22:54

pizza the Kings College people have possibly pre-empted your dream PhD about the use of alcohol. I'll try to find and link the piece I'm thinking of, but off the top of my head it found that alcohol abuse (specifically alcohol, owing to the military's attitude to and enforcement of zero tolerance to other substances) was a major factor in later troublesome behaviour - outweighing by far PTSD in terms of both numbers affected and extent of detrimental effect. And downstream problems leading to eg homelessness and incarceration (I don't think it examined DV, as that's not been AFAIAA much studied in UK - though thanks to posters who signposted in particular the Canadian work).

EdithWeston · 21/12/2011 22:58

This is the study I mean.

< Apologies as this is miles away from the issue of the OP, I didn't intend to hijack, but realise I probably have >

pizzatheaction · 21/12/2011 23:31

ah edith, thank you Grin

that paper, if iirc, discusses alcohol use in terms of post deployment and mental health... mine would go much much further, and focus rather on the use of alcohol as a positive, nay, compulsory part of ordinary military life... from integral part of training and beyond... Wink

i love kings. but they are rather a tool, in the nicest possible way. Grin that might be slightly unfair...

thunderboltsandlightning · 22/12/2011 09:07

Compassion starts with putting your gun down and refusing ever to pick it up.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 22/12/2011 12:08

Article in the Guardian, which I expect many have already seen, but it is good and so relevant I thought I'd link:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/21/the-real-military-wives

yellowraincoat · 22/12/2011 12:23

Interesting article, LRD.

I watched the series and I don't think it necessarily showed the wives in a sentimental light. They were given the chance to speak for themselves, and I think that's a really great thing. It is true that they didn't speak about some of the issues mentioned in that article and by some of the women on this thread.

I think it's a bit weird that they talk about the women being "pretty" in the Daily Mail - it wasn't as if they were all young and thin, it was nice to see women of all ages and shapes on TV. It was nice to see the soloist had tattoos and short hair, they could have easily picked someone who more readily fit the image that people have of military wives.

I did buy the single, incidentally, I think it's a lovely song and the charity is a very worthy one.

FreudianSlipper · 22/12/2011 12:57

i would rather the song be by all those missing loved ones

a friend of mine partner has served in Afghanistan and she found the whole military wife thing very hard to deal with, she felt that was now her identity (especially as he is high ranking) even though she had has a very successful career that was overshadowed by her partner. they no longer live on a base as she didn't not fit into to what was expected of her

FrozenNorthPole · 22/12/2011 13:58

Article really rather good, some of the comments made me want to scratch my eyes out.

I remember my first march-out. I was 8 months pregnant with DD1, and had spent the previous five days bending over trying to weed the enormous, overgrown garden. I could barely stay on my feet. We were billed for the garden anyway.

Yellow - I know they were given the chance to 'speak for themselves' but do you really think they could speak freely in a context which defined them entirely in terms of being object to someone else's subject? Military wives are left under no illusions about the importance of keeping up appearances.

To the pp who pointed out that the choir served as something to do during deployment, thank you for the biggest laugh I've had in weeks Xmas Grin

I would absolutely love to do some research to find out more about the lived experience of 'wifedom' in the military. Perhaps some qualitative interviews looking at personal constructions of roles and limitations alongside quant data re: abuse, depression, divorce. As a research psychologist as well as an 'army wife' I think it would be rather good. The chance of the military letting something like that happen without interference or indeed happen at all? Small.

jcscot · 22/12/2011 17:42

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion but have been very interested in some of the views expressed by military wives on the thread. Do you think we really are that defined as "wife of"? I can't say that I've never come across that because you'd all laugh and know I was lying but most of the time that view came from the "old guard" - bufty old Colonels and the like.

My husband did a tour at RMAS and there, definitely, there was an old-fashioned attitude to wives. However, before we moved there we were told that RMAS was like the Army in the 50's and that we'd never change the system so it was best just to go along with it. While some of it did chafe, I did go along with it and it was one of our best postings. Outside of RMAS, I can't say that I've encountered much in the way of sexism and I've met many wives who would define themselves by all sorts of titles/descriptors - from doctors to soldiers to teachers and hairdressers and everything else you can think of. However, they would also always describe themselves as an Army wife. After all, being married to the military is an all-pervasive thing - you live beside the people that work with your husband and you socialise with them too. It's an incredibly insular and protected way of life, especially if you live behind the wire or on a patch.

I have to admit that my husband's Corps has a high proportion of women serving at all ranks and that does tend to help dispel the myths that women are only fit to be at home and breeding and it does mean that there are plenty of husbands kicking about.

I can't see why the title of the choir would make anyone go "Hmmm" but I am coming at it from a different perspective. Perhaps if you're outside looking in, it looks odd.

I don't particularly like the single because I find the lyrics mawkish and sentimental and I loathe all that sort of thing and hate the wearing of ones heart on ones sleeve. I do think they are worthy charities, however, and support them whenever I can. I don't like the idea that Military wives are being held up as some sort of standard of womanhood, though. The wives I know are a pretty diverse bunch from all walks of life and backgrounds and have a varied a mix of personalities as you would expect from any other group of women. Some are lovely people and there are some women that you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley - just like in civilian life. So, the idea that we're performing some kind of duty etc is a little unsettling. I don't want to be anyone's role model, ta very much!

Army life is fun at times and is hard at times. It can be difficult to be referred to as a dependent when one has to be very independent to succeed.

I would like to see a good independent study into Forces life although AFF does conduct the CAS every year and that can have quite a bit of influence.

Frozen North Pole's descriptions of life in the army certainly struck a chord with me!

jcscot · 22/12/2011 17:44

One last thought - another reason I dislike the single is a very trivial and selfish one: my husband left for Afghanistan at the beginning of the month and three and half weeks into his tour I'm already wanting to thump the next person who asks if I'm going to join a choir to "...help me cope..." and "...give me something to do...".

I am coping very well, thank you very much and with three children aged 5 and under I have plenty to do.

thunderboltsandlightning · 22/12/2011 23:19

US Servicewomen in Iraq are more likely to be raped by their male colleagues than killed by enemy fire:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military

jcscot · 23/12/2011 01:18

Interesting article but I'm not sure how it relates to the op and subsequent discussion. Why should the treatment of rape in the US forces (parlous at best if that article is accurate!) have any bearing on whether or not I choose to define myself as an Army Wife?

thunderboltsandlightning · 23/12/2011 08:30

It's an illustration of what the military actually stands for. Institutionalised violence and woman-hating.

Themrssparkles · 14/10/2012 13:19

Those that want to sing that aren't married to their partners are welcome to join the choirs as are serving military personnel, other family members of serving military personnel, former serving military personnel, wives and family members of former serving personnel, support workers employed within the choirs related military establishment

EdithWeston · 14/10/2012 13:35

I agree that the US military is no paradigm for that of the UK.

It might be better to start a new thread to discuss issues arising during deployment of the US military, rather than bolting it on to the end of one discussing what civilian women have done during the absence of their husbands.

stinimefdar · 15/10/2012 06:10

IMHO I think the use of the term 'military wives' is perjorative. What next 'bankers wives'?

These are all individual women not a homogenus group, who have no doubt come together from different perspectives in solidarity with each other to remind the people of this country that they exist. Singing is a positive activity, lifts the spirit and assists moral, creating a collective outcome in song.
Maybe uncomfortable from the perspective that the issue is wider as I feel it plays into the gingoism that somehow is needed to keep an 'up-side' to the war. I truly hope that these un-sung, now sung women are not being used just to produce tear jerking material for mass consumption but act as a serious reminder that those who live with the active service military pay a heavy price and live in constant states of anxiety.
Big respect to them.

namechangeguy · 15/10/2012 08:26

I think you have found something new and original to be offended by, and we all know that that isn't easy these days. Given that these women (sorry if calling them that is offensive to anyone) have gone out and done something for the benefit of others, what could they do to offend you less in future?