anyone feel uncomfortable about Military Wives Choir?

[Bennifer]

That?s it really. Although I like the idea that the wives are raising money for charity ~(and that we won't have an X factor number 1), there?s something a little unsettling about the military wives angle I can?t quite put my finger on. Am I overthinking this?

It is a feminist issue.

The way one is used and abused and ignored and labeled and the presumption about your involvement and needs and contribution....

SQ
They did actually show a bit about the women's lives on the programme, how they coped with being alone, what it was like being a military wife. It was a very interesting insight into their world.

Many of them talked about being put on hold for however long their husbands were gone, and talked about having to cope when the men came home - they got so used to being "single parents" that it was difficult to switch back into dual parenting mode.

We "expat wives" are called Trailing Spouses, btw.

But do you know what, I don't find it demeaning. I know, my husband knows and our friends and families know that without my support, he would not have been able to accept an overseas posting.

What do I care about a label?

malificence - i suspect if you were 21 and stuck with a baby in germany and a husband in afghan, no-one would give a stuff now, either. except the other wives. there might be a general air of 'ooo, aren't the military wives brave and great and brilliant' about the daily mail, but it won't be affecting life on your average garrision much.

i have no problem with this pr stuff as a means to an end. there does seem to have been some effort of late to make families visible. but it also exposes the gaps in support, and the lack of choice these women (often) have, unless they are strong enough in both their own identity and secure enough in their relationships that they create their own options. against the might of the institution.

meow, your last point makes no sense. if it is entirely women that are affected by this labelling, then that makes it a feminist issue. the fact that 'no' men are affected sort of proves the point.

I don't think it's unique to the military that for couples it's usually the woman who follows the man. That's a much wider point (related to relative earnings, societal expectations on who does childcare and possibly becomes economically inactive etc). This could be interpreted as an example which shows puts such issues into sharp relief - especially as the "main breadwinner" is away in hazardous circumstances, and home communities and support networks are in the spotlight; and housing is provided solely to enable the employed half to have their family nearby.

Norma: it must be tough to have to follow him around, but a female s/s/a would be in exactly the same position in terms of size entitlement of new quarter.

I'm sorry, I'm not reading the whole thread (evil, I know, and I will trawl through it later, I promise).

A friend of mine and DH's is a military husband. He is very proud of his wife and misses her, and is currently taking care of their baby.

On the one hand, I can see the value of women-only spaces like this choir and don't begrudge these women a supportive space. But I do feel sad for him that he doesn't have any space like this.

lrd, yes. he will be experiencing the same thing that a woman does in a men-only space (say,his wife). have seen it happen a number of times with male military spouses. either they are treated like royalty at mums and tots because they are the odd one out, or they are ostracised/ feel too different to take part.
tis v sad.

Well, except he's not in this women-only space.

But I think what strikes me is how the role of military spouse is so very feminised, and he gets loads of comments about how his wife must be 'wearing the trousers' or he himself must be a very effeminate type - which I do think is worrying, because it suggests the women who're military spouses are also being seen as ultra-feminine because of their husband's jobs?

not in this particular one, no, but neither are the wives who work etc etc afai can gather. so it's a very narrow example in itself. but all the other 'military wives' spaces where he would traditionally be expected to receive support... i susoect that if a male spouse was possible or existed on a marine base they would have shoe-horned one in for the pr though. especially one with a baby

the role fascinates me. it's a strange mixture of 'wife of' where you are absolutely defined as 'other' and expected to brush up and glad hand, but then when the 'men' are away, you are expected to take over the male aspects of the role as well. and then obediently relinquish them when the 'men' get back. so that you aren't emasculating them/ making them redundant...

and yes, the fact that a male spouse is so unusual raises many many questions about the way gender roles are viewed. not least how women in the military are viewed in comparison to their male colleagues' spouses, in the same way that male spouses are viewed in comparison to the serving men. endlessly fascinating. it just reinforces everything you ever feared about gender roles and the military.

that said, the fact that there are male spouses now, and there are 'wives of' that have careers as opposed to pin money jobs when they can get them is positive and will eventually lead to more change. but the old 'keeping the home fires burning' is such a powerful image that it's hard to to change...

Well they wanted to play up "keeping the home fires burning" as a deliberate editorial decision to tie in with the Albert Hall do.

I didn't see much of the actual programmes, so don't know how the group was portrayed then. But that night of performance was clearly fitted into a tradition.

And for some reason, it's made me think also of Rod Stewart and the use put to "Sailing" and Robson and Jerome cashing in on "Soldiers".

I think it is worth separating out what a particular group of spouses do, from the use to which the media put it; and again from the benefit that it accrues - both directly to the participants and indirectly to those who receive services from the charities who stand to make money from it. The gender issues are different in each case.

I am uncomfortable about it. I was in the RAF myself and we were excluded from everything. they could have found at least one military husband I am sure.

When I was in the RAF the men's wives hated us because they thought we were after their husbands. I wouldnt have wanted most of them gift wrapped. Also, I when I came out of the RAF and my husband was still in I still had my own life, job etc. Alot of the civilian wives didnt do anything. There were only 2 of us on the whole estate who had outside jobs and lives. They dont seem to have moved on alot and I was in 30 years ago!

Sorry if this sounds offensive, I dont mean it to.

Not offensive at all MrsClown.
I'm a 'military wife' and I felt uncomfortable about the labelling here.
The army is still an inherently misogynistic organisation, and unless you are a wife who stays home with the children they are pretty unsupportive, full stop. I remember ringing one of the 'support' lines in tears because we'd moved 4 times in 2 years, DH (army doctor) had just heard he'd been posted to the other end of the UK, I was pregnant with DC2 and we couldn't move with him (my job, and children's nursery etc. were fixed). The woman on the phone said that I should leave my job, or suck it up. As she pointed out, this is why not many military spouses get to have the luxury of their own careers too.
Military wife is a very specific role, with a lot of inherent limitations and sexism underlying it. If you go along with the unwritten rules (and the written ones) you can limit the damage it does to you, but some damage is unavoidable. It is a role with a lot of stress, heartache and loneliness built in, which you are taught to try to hide very early on - DH once calculated that 75% of the wives on the officers' patch were on antidepressants at any one time.

If you try to break free of the role and the stereotype, my experience is that the army do their level best to put you in your place. So yes, the military wives choir has me in floods of tears. I cry for these women and the sacrifices they make (and indeed for all military partners of whatever gender). I also cry for our family, the time that we'll never get back and the cracks in our marriage that will never heal.

I also cry, selfishly, because this time next year we'll be spending Christmas alone as DH will be, once more, deployed. And there's nothing noble or principled about what it's like living in daily fear for your DH's life, nor about doing everything - house, job, kids, bills, diy, illnesses, bereavements - on your own. There's nothing heartwarming about your children forgetting what daddy looks like and forgetting the things he used to do with them. There's nothing courageous about the way you get through each day - numbly, grumpily, exhaustedly and with a constant gnawing worry in the pit of your stomach that explodes into terror when you see the evening news begin with a map of Afganistan and a statement from the MoD, again... and you feel pretty shit when you hear some other poor sod's name read out and the first feeling that hits you is relief.
So why do I object to this stunt? I think, mostly, because it perpetuates a stereotype of military spouse-dom that glosses over the real issues, stresses and constraints of the role in favour of a few minutes of quick-fix, feel-good photographs of the guys that make it home again (and none of the families who are left behind when he doesn't make it home).

Great post FNP...

Are there any organisations/groups/traditions that have 'husbands' in the title? Anywhere in our society?

I'm uncomfortable about it as I don't like the song and don't think they are very good.

FNP, great post. Your life sounds very hard. I hope things improve for you at some point. And I don't mean that as tritely as it probably sounds.

Great post, frozennorthpole

I was a forces brat.

When my mum was in military hospital, having her babies, her wristband/ notes read "wife of (my father's number.)"

Similarly, when my brother was in hospital, his notes/ ID said "dependent of (xyz)"

When my parents split, it had to be a secret until Mum found a new house - because had it been public, we would have been expelled from the base.

Mum was basically an accessory to my father (an officer.) It was a dull, depressing life for her. I'm glad she got out.

FWIW, my father was deployed in a war zones (first gulf war). I find the sentimentality irritating, and the expectation on these women depressing. Imagine if they didn't feel like being "brave." Or even staying with the husband (infidelity and abuse was rife among the families on base.)

I find it all very sad, actually. Fair play if it's the life you want, but as FNP says, women who don't conform to the brave little wifey role get squished PDQ.

frosty, you wouldn't have been expelled from the base.

your father would have been moved into single service accommodation (the mess), and you and your mother would have been given three months before you had to leave the base, and a great deal of support to find civilian accommodation.

this of course, would only have been evident if your mother had known the rules and been offered that support, but as it was a secret (potentially because of something your father said?) then neither she nor you would have known that.

ssafa would have been with her to offer advice. the services even their own accommodation in the cotswolds which is often used as a halfway house in the case of marriage breakdowns and move to civilian life.

and FNP. quite. you have eloquently said what i was attempting to say earlier, but quite often i am so angry about it all that it verges on incoherence.

unfortunately, the services get a lot of practise in the whole marriage breakdown piece. statistically more than in comparable civilian terms.

maybe that's another reason why the term 'wife' is so popular on the pr front.

If they hadn't been called that, no one would have had a clue who they were ... it's a means to an end. Surely there are bigger fish to fry?

FNP - it's why I wouldn't get involved with someone who had chosen this for their life... it's just not a lifestyle I'd choose to live :( Marginalised and terrified of them not coming home .... life's hard enough without that.

I don't think this choir is a women-only space. It's got Gareth in it, leading it from the front.

This is putting women back in their box as appendages of men. If you can couple marriage with the uber-patriarchal institution of the military, all the better. Patriarchy squared.

As I understand it domestic violence is at twice the rate in the military as it is in the rest of the population.

Do you have a link for D&V stats?

When it comes to Forces children and schools, the Forces don't seem to know how many households they have (especially if non-marital), so it would be interesting to see how the counting has been done for this.

try RAND - they have pretty much everything. don't know it off the top of my head, but seems likely. divorce and sep stats certainly higher. might be something on the kings website too, their mil research dept often has links to uk stuff.

i doubt there has been any research into d&v for the uk mil. but us or cdn stuff should be easy enough to find.

if uk stats exist, they would have been collected by agency such as ssafa who would just be keeping a tally of referrals for different reasons, and then someone would have done a comparison with 'average' uk population of similar age/ wage. that would be my guess anyway.

the us does a lot of research though. anyone interested can start with mary segal (and her dh who i have forgotten the name of david?). or just check out RAND with appropriate search keywords. loads and loads.

as an aside, anyone who digs up the sexual harassment stats for the military might like to know that the questions are deeply subjective and flawed, and actually don't give much of a picture of anything, but the way they write them up is tragically hilarious. sort of 'harassment goes down this year by 10%!!! woo hoo!!! and then you look at the actual stats which claim 70% of females have experienced what they consider to be sexual harassment by colleagues. woo fecking hoo indeed. (i paraphrase, and haven't see the most recent one, no idea what they claim the actual stats are currently, but usually they make me want to alternately gouge my eyes out or grab the nearest rifle and go on a rampage whilst screeching 'only 70%%%!!!!')

apols for random rant. as you were.

a subscription to 'armed forces and society' would also keep you abreast...