Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

Hi idrilis.

I don't think 'pandering' is the right word. I don't imagine that this stuff is consciously formulated for most people. Lots of people who are not very aware of either feminism or transgender issues will simply not realize that the idea of innate gender might be incorrect, or harmful. That doesn't mean it doesn't have the power to harm them.

I don't follow what you mean by saying we are all 'performing gender' - what about those of us who reject gender as a pertinent category?

It is true that people in general put on a gender performance, but that is a very different thing to having a gender identity that is part of who we are. A lot of people put on a gender performance because they feel they have to.

What transgender people seem to be saying is that they are putting on that gender performance because it is who they feel they are. I understand that it is somewhat more complex than that, in that MTF transgender people may initially put on a specific gender role of femininity because they think that is the accepted form for other people, and then once they are more comfortable their feminine gender becomes more nuanced and more authentic in terms of how they personally feel.

But for many women, we have no underlying gender. It is literally a performance we do for the benefit of others in order to survive in society..

Most women, in my experience, like both masculine and feminine things.

Great post idrilis, you have cogently expressed what I was incoherently groping towards.

Milly yes exactly, contributing to this board reminds me of a university tutorial with a razor-sharp supervisor.

Btw, I don't think I would 'vilify' many (or any) individual for supporting the patriarchy, especially not someone who may themself be oppressed. But saying that is a long way from saying I must agree with it or support their support of the patriarchy.

IMO, saying something (eg. breast augmentation) is 'entirely their own business' doesn't make sense if we're talking political ideology. Sure, you don't go up to an individual and start berating or celebrating their choices, because it's rude. But that doesn't mean you can't have a position on that issue as it affects broader society.

Someone modifying their female body, or modifying their male body and asserting that this relates to the understanding of a female body, does affect me. It's not something that happens in a vacuum we can conveniently lable 'private'. IMO.

Excuse my absence (I work nights) but I'm just catching up with the discussion so far and wanted to thank everybody for their contributions, it's been a very measured and reasonable discussion. :)

Milly - hmm. But aren't we socialised from such an early age to perform gender that most of us internalise the performance and it becomes part of our identity, even if we're not really aware of it? For instance - men and women tend to move, walk etc in a different way, but most people won't be consciously aware of this, they just replicate what the unspoken assumptions are.

I know loads of people who like both 'masculine' and 'feminine' things, but only one who really, truly refuses to perform the relevant gender identity. I feel like I don't have much of a gender, but have been assured by various boyfriends that I 'perform' as a woman (even when I have been lecturing them on economics and railway networks).

(Not talking about transsexuals here, BTW.)

I'm going to change the identity of the people in your quote Idrillis, you originally said transgender...

'Some people feel that they need to adopt a gender performance that is at variance with that which society expects of them based on their outward sexual signifiers- they may identify as butch lesbians and are in my opinion challenging the patriarchy and its oppressive roles and are doing so in a way that often leaves them at great personal risk.'

Butch lesbians, after all, have taken on many aspects of masculine gender, yet they are living in a way that it truly revolutionary. They are saying that women can be whatever they want to be, and it doesn't make them men to do so.

Mooncup, we can only act in ways that exist in our culture. I am sure that there are feminine aspects to the way I behave and masculine aspects to the way you behave. There isn't a need to act in an entirely male way to demonstrate that I am not influenced by gender.

mooncup - isn't the fact that these things become internalized (so they restrict us from within) even more reason why the idea that gender performance should be encouraged, is a dangerous one?

If you think of a little girl who has internalized the idea that she should be pretty, and this involves wearing pretty makeup, and she spends a lot of time and money and probably emotional angst on this, how does it help her if someone else says 'ah well, you have internalized this gender performance and so it restricts you, but I have chosen to do it'? Doesn't that just reinforce to the girl that what she has internalized is in fact a choice, a performance, and she's only got herself to blame if she feels pressured to do it?

That is what I worry about.

Also, in terms of the not consciously realising it. I don't agree with that either. They may just not thought about it very much. I don't believe in the existence of the subconscious either, but that is a whole other thread.

Yes LRD, I quite agree with that.

Though I would make a distinction between 'thinking one should look a particular way' and 'internalising a type of behaviour without even realising it'. Putting on make-up is a conscious act, whereas standing or speaking in a particular way usually isn't (well, I don't think so but Milly would disagree). Would be fascinated to hear your views on the subconscious sometime, Milly!

idrilis - I know that there are various different bodily conditions - one can be XX with an enlarged clitoris, or XY with no evident penis, or whatever. If this is the 'continuum' you mean, I do see it. I think the point made earlier in the thread, that women who've undergone hysterectomy are still very much women, is important here.

However, I don't think the 'vast majority' of humans have sexual signifiers that relate to both male and female ... what do you mean? The vast majority of people are unambiguously, biologically, male or female. People with ambiguous genitals are quite rare, and as I understand it, they do not all identify as transgender ... so surely this defeats the point?

Btw, by referring to 'cisgendered women', you are actually 'rejecting the very validity of [my] own identity and lived experience'. I wouldn't normally be showing I'm upset but this point has been made at least twice on this thread and it is upsetting to me. I don't want to hve to apologize for that here.

Idrillis, I'm not arguing that transgendered people don't have an authentic feeling of gender.

By using the term cisgendered you are telling people how they should experience their identity, because you are attaching a gender label to them without their consent. The people you refer to as cisgendered did not invent that label and haven't asked to be called it.

Btw, I think maybe rejecting gender as a category cannot be referred to as a 'preference'. It's part of an ideology. It could not (IMO) be carried out on an individual basis. It is not therefore a preference, because preference implies individual choice. I do agree that we all probably do choose which battles to fight and are not able constantly to challenge gender stereotypes. It's true this is a consequence of operating within the patriarchy. But that does not mean we are 'opting into' anything IMO, because it's not a free choice.

I don't knwo if I'm making sense here or not.

LRD, I think it is another example of how supporting the trans argument has to minimise women's experiences. In order to show that gender performance is part of who most people are rather than just something we do, we have to trivialise the pressure women are put under and the consequences of not performing.

This is rather similar to the biological sex argument. Sex becomes merely a signifier; a woman's body is reduced to merely an appearance, an object. The fact that being a woman means most of us give birth and breastfeed, which is a lot more than simply an appearance, has to be trivialised and made out to be a not particularly important part of the collective female experience.

why does it?

how can it harm the feminist movement if human beings born biologically male, feel strongly that they are female?

as long as ALL females, lesbian, butch, straight, ex-male, femme, bi etc etc are feminists, what does it matter?

i don't see how it trivialises women's experience? Oppression is oppression. I feel v uncomfortable at the idea of denying someone's feelings and experiences and telling them they're not welcome.

Hully, anybody can be a feminist. You don't have to be a woman.

It doesn't have to trivialise women's experiences to accept that transgender people have authentic feelings about their own gender.

It does trivialise women's experiences when people suggest:

1. That gender is innate for everyone, so it is fine to treat women in XYZ way, because they are not really interested in Maths or whatever, because if they were really interested then they would want to become a man. It is trivialising women's experiences to deny the massive pressure women are put under to conform to a gender roles, particularly in some other countries. Iran is very liberal about transgender, but it still whips women who don't wear female clothes in public.

1. That things like giving birth and abortion are side issues, because reproductive function is not important, because the female body is just a signifier. Reproductive health is a major feminist issue.

I will try and find some links.

yy I agree with all that. Except that iran isn't liberal, it forces people to have ops.

I mean I don't feel comfortable with trans people being excluded from women-events.

I know why they are, but I don't think I agree with it.

Or trans peopel being told they are men because born that way. I don't like anyone being oppressed or dictated to in any way at all.