Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

what happens, Len?

I'm not (self-defined) cis either, tho I don't mind it being used about me as a descriptor

I think it can be expanded rather than abolished. I think there are enough of us and we are strong enough to include a few folk born in the wrong body.

What do you mean by trans people being excluded.

Some women's events accept trans men, but not trans women (like the Michigan music festival and women's health centre).

Some women's events accept trans women but not trans men.

Which type of exclusion are you objecting to? Or are you objecting to the existence of all women only events and services?

I feel that any self-identified woman should be welcomed at women-only events.

I think. At the moment.

Trans people aren't talking about "gender" they are talking about what sex they are or rather aren't. The gender thing is a bit of red herring. MTF trans believe they are women and want to be treated as such legally, politically and socially. It's why Julia Serano can claim to have a female penis.

It does trivialise women for men to claim to be women.

"See I consider myself a radical feminist as I consider gender a social construction, but I don't think this means that transgendered and transsexual experiences are somehow pandering to the patriarchy and do think that the views of Julie Bindel are pretty horrific hate speech"

That isn't the radical argument idrilis - radicals aren't arguing that individual trans are "pandering" to the patriarchy. The radical argument is that trans is part of structural sexism that reduces women down to mere feeling of men, and uses patriarchal institutions to enforce that point of view.

This isn't about individual trans people, it's about male supremacist institutions like medicine and the law, erasing women's actual being. If you're a radical feminist you'll understand that. It's liberal feminists who see politics being decided on feelings and whose feelings need most taking into account, in this case men's.

So Hully, if a man is pregnant, you think that he should not be allowed into a women's health event, because he self identifies as a man?

What's your view on FTM transsexuals, thunderbolts?

And you think that it is acceptable to tell people with female reproductive potential, whether they consider themselves to be a man or a woman, they they are not allowed to have any event just for themselves, that they are not allowed a group identity.

Or of I set up a group called 'the female reproductive potential group' is that okay, as long as we don't use the word woman, because the word woman is now only to be used by people who feel like women? Or am I not allowed to have a group that mentions the word female at all?

milly - explain "man is pregnant"?

When did people stop believing that woman means adult human female and means something else or nothing at all.

It's snuck up on us.

I think they are women Mooncup. What's your opinion on them?

There have been transgender men who have got pregnant and given birth after having gender reassignment surgery.

group identity is interesting.

Yes, I think it's fine to have eg Women with Fully Functioning Womb Group., say, but if it is Women Marching Together to Protest about Pay, then any self-identified Woman could be welcome.

I think.

Blimey! I never knew that. I need to read about that.

Well, I guess yes, they'd be welcome in the Womb group then.

I think.

I think they (FTMs) should be allowed to self-identify as they choose... though transitioning to being a man and then getting pregnant does seem to be having one's cake and eating it.

Goodness it's hard.

But what about women-born-women who've had hysterectomies or have otherwise non-functioning wombs, Hully?

I don't think female reproductive potential and fully functioning womb group are the same thing though.

I would like a word, that nobody finds offensive, that can be used to describe humans born with female reproductive potential. So that i can say that I identify with that group, regardless of them having male, female or no gender identity.

Milly could you explain what your definition of man is if you're saying a man can become pregnant.

Male and female aren't identities, they are biological realities.

Are people saying the whole of biological sciences got it wrong? Because sex exists, right down to our cells. It's not something you can identify with, it's something you simply are.

Sex and gender are interchangeable, aren't they? I would use the example of the clown-fish, but feel it may be interpreted wrongly. After all, our sex is not as interchangeable as theirs, is it?

I hate the whole trans argument, as having not lived in that mindset that I'm trapped in the wrong body, I don't feel I can justify talking about how they should be perceived. But then, I feel slightly uncomfortable with anyone born into a male body saying they feel like a woman; they don't experience the same oppression as a man as they would as a woman. They'll never be put at the risk of an unwanted pregnancy, even after a sex change. Yes, the trans community is oppressed, and potentially in need of an "ism" to fight that oppression, but Feminism isn't about LGBT rights; I may support those rights, but it's not because I'm a feminist. I supporft women's rights because I'm a feminist. I may find it slightly easier to accept a post-op transgendered woman at a women only event, but can understand those who don't. But the idea of a pre-op trans MTF at a women only event doesn't sit comfortably with me at all.