Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

lrd, no, not denying women etc, just that the conversation is mainly about trans.

So it would be lovely for a white person to be able to self-define as black without fear of reprisal? Black people would just have to tolerate or accept their claims, despite the fact that there is a prior reality of being black that the white person has just trampled all over.

Would it be trampling?

It would depend on the person, the situation and the motive. Plus, I suspect there would be sniggers if someone did indeed walk about claiming to be black. Black is a bit unhelpful, because it's a colour, perhaps they could claim to be African? Which would at least be plausible.

Well, yes, exactly. This conversation is mainly about trans.

But how do you cope with the mutually incompatible 'feelings and realities'.

You're very insistent that transgender people's feelings and realities be respected. I see that. And I see you made a slight qualification about 'as far as possible'.

But how do you propose to do any of this without trampling all over the 'feelings and realities' of a lot of women? I'm not saying all women's feelings and realities (nor I imagine are you talking about all transgender people's feeligns and realities). But I've yet to see you acknowledge that there is an problem of two mutually incompatible sets of feelings and realities. What do you do about it?

But Hully that's the point. A white person can be African.
They can't be black.

Once again, this debate is being rephrased in terminology that already rejects a feminist position before we've had chance to debate it.

Hang on, do you mean, lrd, that some women feel strongly that no "man" should be allowed to become a "woman" because it's impossible, and that for those women that is their "experience and reality"?

Well thinking you're a woman or black or whatever is one thing, it's nobodies' business really,a thought or feeling can't hurt born women or black people. I would think you'd have to tolerate that even if it's distasteful to you. It's only the real world actions such as entering women/black only spaces that have an effect on the wider society. I know thoughts lead to actions but they are distinct and that is important to recognise.

very interesting thread

Once again, this debate is being rephrased in terminology that already rejects a feminist position before we've had chance to debate it.

You're going to have to explain that too.

Hully, if by that you think it is acceptable for their to be some women's situations/services etc while we work things out then you are one of the people trans activists would consider to be transphobic, so there's no point then going on about acceptance because that isn't your stance.

And we are not in some kind of working it out kind of situation. It is the law. You can't refuse to be strip searched by a MTF transgender person. The police tried to make it possible, but the law found against them.

I agree that we should all be able to self define, that is why I want a name that I can self define by that doesn't cause offence to trans activists. But no such name exists, which is certainly a massive problem when attempting to self define. An Orwellian problem in fact! If you want to ignore a group's oppression, simply don't have a word that describes their existence.

Hully - there is a big difference between saying "tough shit, you were born that way, live with it, it's your problem." and wanting women only spaces in some circumstances.

'Hang on, do you mean, lrd, that some women feel strongly that no "man" should be allowed to become a "woman" because it's impossible, and that for those women that is their "experience and reality"?'

I'm sorry, I'm being awfully rude here and I don't often say this, but I'm never going to get anything done today if I don't get out of here soon:

Hully, please go read the rest of the thread. We've been over this and over it. You may not get it and I'm not expecting you to agree with me or even see my point, but understand this does properly upset me.

It is not possible for a man to become biologically identical to a woman.

My 'experience and reality' is that I am a woman. Not some othered, partial form of 'woman', not a 'cis woman', but a woman.

That ideological and terminological point is not something I can convince myself to feel differently about. It is my reality. I feel this way.

Why is it after 19 pages of saying these things and trying to say them politely, carefully, with respect to others, there is still no sense that my feelings and reality are even important enough to discuss? No, they must be sidelined because this is 'mostly about trans'. Even though AFAIK there is no-one here who is transgender, even though there are shedloads of women all saying how they feel and what reality is for them.

I just can't keep saying it to keep getting ignored or have the terms of debate 'rephrased' in such a way as to leave no room for my point of view in that debate.

What has happened is that the only people who are now allowed (legally, medically, politically) to define what a woman is are patriarchal men and their female supporters. And they have reduced being a woman to a feeling that a man has.

I don't know how you can support that Hully.

Fair enough if you just see your body as a shell, but a lot of us feel a great deal more about our physical reality, and to see it negated by men who want to pretend it simply doesn't exist or matter is horrifying. Why are our feelings not seen as important in this. How do you make the judgement about whose feelings are more important?

Like Milly it's the road to erasing oppression - if no women exist or if woman is simply a feeling then no oppression of women can exist.

I don't mind being considered transphobic, or anything phobic or wrong etc, what interests me is stumbling and bumbling towards solutions that work for everyone.

Am I correct in thinking that the objection to being searched by a MtF is because of a position that it is impossible for a "man" to become a "woman"?

the last was to milly.

Oh I see lrd. I have been reading all the thread btw.

ok, I'll think about your position too.

Yes, I understand your position, thunder, and I sym/empathise with it.

But I see theirs too.

And that of WtM.

They aren't getting much of a look in here!

I think that would depend on the feelings of the individual woman Hully.

I would suspect for a lot of woman, when stripped by a person who is a stranger to them, they aren't going to have time to get to know the feeling in that person's head. They just see a clothed person who has a body that looks like what we all used to refer to as 'male.'

A lot of women feel uncomfortable being made to undress in front of a person with what used to be called a 'male' body. I doubt they all have a political position on it. It is a 'feeling' about biological sex that women often get in their head when asked to remove all their clothes and have somebody check their body parts.

It all comes down to whether you believe these people ("MTF") are men or women.

View 1: A strip search of a woman by a man who has become a woman.

View 2: A strip search of a woman by a woman.

It doesn't come down to that Tiggy. The person being strip searched has no right to a view at all.

milly - yes I can see that too.

Hully "FtM"s get overlooked a lot because there aren't many of them.

I think that most of the women with a transsexual past I've met would be understanding and discrete when it comes to situations that could upset others. I'm sure Trans extremists don't talk for the majority of trans people in the same way as feminist extremists don't talk for the majority of feminists.

yes, I'm sure that's true too.