Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

Well yes of course the Iran thing is appalling - but in that case the transsexual issues are secondary to the intolerant attitudes to homosexuality, which are the main problem there.

I don't have enough personal experience to have a sense of to what extent horrible behaviour by MTFs is down to a particular ideological outlook, rather than individual personality. (Does anyone on the thread have personal experience of this? Would be interesting to hear.)

But what would you have them do, thunderbolts, these people who are utterly miserable because they feel they are living in the wrong body? Grin and bear it? Have therapy to tell them that what they're feeling is wrong?

These are the kind of things that I meant when I said it should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

The Germaine Greer issue. It was clearly not acceptable that a physicist (IIRC) who had developed most of his career as male was then given a position reserved for women, when he had not had to battle all of the sexism that female academics had been through in that particular time period.

The hormone treatments to adolescents - clearly not acceptable when most of the people who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria or equivalent will not want surgery, or even be transgender at all, as adults.

And I think this case by case is reflected in the law at present in the UK. I seem to remember that MTF transgender people at work do not have automatic rights to female toilets - the feelings of the female employees are taken into account. The Equality Act also allows for discrimination if there is a genuine occupational requirement, and I think that could be argued to cover rape counselling for females. But I think we have to be very careful about what happens with those laws, and feminists have to keep a close eye on this issue.

Therapy to find out why they are feeling that way.

Lots of people suffer from delusions, maybe they think they are Jesus, maybe they think they'd be happier with a leg lopped off. Would you also tell them that they are right Mooncup?

I can say what should not happen mooncup - they shouldn't be being told to take on all the stereotypical roles and trappings of femininity/masculinity in order to qualify for surgery. I know that's not a positive answer to what should they do, but it is important IMO.

Who would deal with those things Milly though? Who would you see as being in charge of those decisions?

Individualising it down to particular cases makes it impossible to deal with the whole issue, which is that the institution of transgender is an attack on women and our reality, and also on feminism. It's not a coincidence that feminism is where trans activists mount most of their attacks despite the fact we have virtually zero power.

I don't think I am arguing for individualising it entirely. As feminists, we are a political movement, and as such we put forward many collective arguments, including our belief that gender is a damaging social construct.

But we are not in charge of the law. We just have to campaign for it to move in the direction we want. And many laws, including the equality act, are not very specific. How that act is interpreted develops through cases. So what happens in individual cases is built upon by further cases to form a collective interpretation of the law. We just have to fight for it to move in the direction we want.

But I don't see a point in challenging individual trans people if they, as an individual, are just getting on with their own lives and not demanding something from women.

"Clearly we need to be able to deal with predatory/difficult MTFs in sensitive spaces (as we do with anyone who is predatory or difficult in a sensitive space"

No, we need to keep out predators from female only spaces. MTF's tell us we can't.

It was a fucking disgrace that Newnham appointed that guy. S/he'd never had to face the discrimination, undermining and belittling that female academics have to live with. His/ her experiences in academia have been fundamentally different and better, than those of his/ her female peers, because s/he's had all the advantages patriarchal society gives males. S/he's there under false pretences.

The body dysphoria issue is an interesting comparator - I read of a case once where a man had spend years hating his left leg and wanting to have it amputated. He did finally succeed in getting it amputated and then felt much happier. I find it hard to object to that.

But of course the medical profession has a duty to people who want to be physically damaged for psychological reasons. They need to make sure that it's not just a passing whim, or an issue that can be solved in another way... hence I suppose the requirement for transgender people to 'act' as the other sex for a prolonged period to demonstrate commitment. (Having said that, I entirely understand LRD's objections to them having to do this. It is ridiculous. But I do see why there are hoops to jump through before being allowed surgery.)

How do you "act" as the opposite sex, if we've already decided that sex doesn't really exist as a physical reality and is rather something that is situated in the brain or the mind?

Do you mean act in the gender role that is assigned to each sex Mooncup Goddess? In which case you can surely see why this is such a problem for feminists.

"But I don't see a point in challenging individual trans people if they, as an individual, are just getting on with their own lives and not demanding something from women."

I'm not sure that anybody is arguing for that Milly.

See I do have a problem with the left leg man .

On one level I can see that it solved his problem, good outcome for all.

But it lacks for me, the fact that actually, human beings are born with 2 legs for a reason and it's a real psychological prob if you don't want one of your's. I think the medical profession should put its efforts into finding out why people don't want their legs and deal with that pscyhological problem, instead of cutting their legs off. It seems to me,. that the latter route is dealing with the symptom, not the problem.

I think this link shows some of the problems with the law. I don't think that it is acceptable that women should have intimate searches carried out by a MTF transgender person:

www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ltext/l1160005.htm

All sorts of body modifications seem to walk the fine line between creating an identity and mutilation. I do think it is a feminist issue (not to dictate to people what to do with their bodies, but to think hard about what bodily modification means in different circumstances).

For example, I find it very hard not to see the piercing of ears as mutilation. I am horribly, horribly squeamish about it. Yet for many people, it is simply a normal and unexceptional aspect of their identity, something they use to project a certain image.

With this surgery, I think a big part of the issue must be that it is not akin to waving a magic wand and creating a woman from a man or a man from a woman, and I think to many people who're not very involved in these debates, it is assumed to be exactly that.

This is v interesting. Sitting here reading all these posts and being educated.

"Many women don't want to be told that their identity is woman, because they don't feel they have an inner gender identity - they feel like people with female bodies" - this is exactly how I feel. EXACTLY! Thankyou lenin. When I don't need my femaleness - ie when I am at work, walking the dog, etc I feel quite happy to pack my gender away and ignore it. Whereas I know many women who want to feel female all the time - it's a huge part of who they are. Sorry....totally OT. But carry on the good work people. I am enjoying this

thunderbolts - are you saying that people that feel they are in the wrong body have a psychological issue that needs treating first and foremost?

I'm going to go and read all that Julia S stuff now

Yes, me too Orm. I really appreciated that post lenin.

Wasn't it? Oops! Sorry...

She does. But you make sense too.

I have not always talked sense on this. On some of the earlier threads I came out with some total nonsense, but I think that is the point of this section. It gives us a chance to discuss these things and try and work out what does make sense to us on lots of different issues.

Len - ssh with the difficult questions ?

tsk. Thems the inneresting ones

Why isn't it the same?