I am a middle-aged menopausal woman who has had 3 children, a career and a long marriage

[OrmIrian]

i have gained weight, have lines on my face and look my age.

Why do I feel apologetic? Why do I feel uncomfortable about how I look because I don't look like a 19 yr old?

Why do the facts about my looks and my body cancel out the facts in my title? Why can a woman not feel proud of her achievements inspite of the natural deterioration of her body?

Not original sentiments I know but it just struck me how much effort I put into looking 'right' and how bloody stupid it is.

garlic DO slendertones really work? have always been a bit skeptical about them, but have a wobbly tummy despite being slim, thanks to 2 dc :o so would try one if they actually do something!

apologies to everyone else for very un-feminist threadjack

Maybe not all that un-feminist, if slightly off-topic ... They tone the targeted muscle groups, yes. They don't make you lose any fat (or possibly a very tiny bit). So, if your wobble's due to baby-stretching of the abdominal muscles, yes it will help. If this just happens to be where your body stores lard - only CV excercise will shift it.

In my superfit days, I ran with mine on & got incredible results. Works without other exercise, too - it's just that it does what it says on the tin, not everything else as well.

garlic : "Some contributors to this thread seem to be making the mistake of actually believing age is all in the mind" I haven't read the thread (yet) but I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment - and I think the "all in the mind" (or, at least, partly in the mind) sentiment is very prevalent in society. It drives me MAD when people are credited with their good health, or, the flip side, congratulated for responding to illness is a certain way - not letting it beat them etc etc. obviously some of our life style choices affect our health and yes, I guess we can take some credit for that - but our health and the way we age is hugely down to factors we have no control over (genetics, environment).

Christine Lagarde has white hair and wrinkles and is fab.

So you see OP, no need to appologise about your age.

and Angela Merkel ist wunderbar!

I wrote a longish post earlier and then my darling toddler 'lost' it for me...

So, in a nutshell, I don't think good health/good looks are anything to feel smug about in oneself or congratulate others about - equally, poor health/looks should never attract 'blame' although to feel responsible for ones lifestyle choices is always a wise thing . But attitude ie how you let your good/bad fortune affect you does make a huge difference in quality of life.
I've known some people with chronic illness who were far happier, less neurotic and navel gazing than some other people with really little to worry about.
I hate all the 'war speak' wrt to cancer btw: we are all "battling" cancer, and she "lost her war" with cancer etc etc, as it makes it sound as if you'd only die of the Big C if you are a wimp or summat.
But how a bad diagnosis affects people varies enormously, which in turn affects how they deal with whatever time they have left.

Sorry, slightly off on a tangent here with all the cancer chat, but as Life is a lethal condition which always ends in death, I do think 'middle-aged' should mean 'half of life ahead of me', not 'half my life over' IYKWIM.

Slendertone, eh??

I think all the posts here are relevant to feminism. Talk about ageing with regard to women, and you get a whole bunch of guff about losing your looks (er, I still have looks, thanks; they've changed but not gone away) and still being able to fit in your wedding dress (well, that must be handy if you're thinking of using it again). Men, otoh, might mention a decline in their golf swing but generally take the view that they're still great if a little creaky here & there.

It boils down, yet again, to women's appearance - which now includes fitness and perkiness, as well as facial smoothness and poutiness - being the most important thing about them. I'm in the school of ageing women who find the "loss" of youthfulness about as irritating as your male golfer does but, on the whole, enjoy new freedoms bestowed by age. Am I supposed to look at 30-year-olds and wish I had their looks, or were as lithe as them? Tough - believe it or not, I have been thirty; had my turn, and now I'm doing something different :)

Ageism, in terms of employment and financial opportunities, does piss me off. The beauty thing, not really. It saddens me to see women all over the place "dreading" ageing, purely in terms of appearance. I loved what somebody wrote, above, about being able to look forwards AND back!

As a feminist, I'd like to see our culture acknowledging the realities of ageing more positively. I think it will happen - I'm in the early part of the baby boom, we're still the biggest chunk of the population and our collective spending power has actually grown. The ad agencies who embrace these facts constructively will make a killing. (If they can bring themselves to hire someone over 50!)

Power to the Grey Pound [fist in the air]

Pacific - tbh that - war and cancer - was what I was getting at - but was aware it was a bit of a tangent.

I agree - about the 'war', not the tangent!
Fight the signs of ageing.
Battle that bulge.
Wipe out wrinkles.
Beat the ageing process.
Stop time!

It's all the same thing, isn't it? You MUST be fit, healthy and young. You MUST NOT get old, infirm, sick or die. If you manage to get old without getting sick & dying first, I would have thought you're doing quite well! But you'll still die. It is a little bizarre that our cultural imperatives are so fixated on being young and fit ... and a little unimaginative that so much commerce is based on pushing those values.

It's as if we're all supposed to believe we can overcome any illness; the natural process of ageing; even death, by buying the right stuff and making the right effort. As if it's so important we must fight for it - fight against ourselves, against nature and against time. The implication is that, in becoming ill or old or dead, we've failed: we can't have done the right things or fought hard enough? Not only is it an unforgiving, punishing doctrine; it is doomed to fail.

garlic your fantastic post at 21.11

"Keep young and beautiful
It?s your duty to be beautiful
Keep young and beautiful
If you want to be loved
Don?t fail to do your stuff
With a little powder and a puff
Keep young and beautiful
If you want to be loved.
If you?re wise, exercise all the fat off
Take it off, off-a here, off-a there,
When you?re seen anywhere with your hat off
Have a marcel wave in your hair
Take care of all those charms
And you?ll always be in someone?s arms
Keep young and beautiful
If you want to be loved."

Eh? Come on gals!

Better get myself a 'regime' I guess.

Ah yes....the first record I ever bought.

Joking - I'm not quite that old!

I'm 46, 3 dc, no career though, expanding and yet invisible. How can something that's getting larger be less visible It bothers me but not as much as it should I suspect.

Life really does feel like Logans Run doesn't it

I have been following this thread with interest as it chimes with my own feelings

It really is not just about how I feel about myself and how I value and view my abilities, that helps, but the context in which we live is really a powerful influence, it helps if the nearest care and value us too
but the invisibility factor is quite strong and somewhat bewildering

The issue to analyse is why garlicb and I don't feel the way a lot of women feel. How come we have a happiness with our looks and a lack of concern about them changing and other women feel very upset by it all?

What causes that difference?

Is it just that some people are never happy with anything?
Or is it how we were brought up?
Is it that we're quite pretty anyway/not really aged too much?
Is it that we have other interests such as career etc?

Deffo not #2, Xenia! My mother crucifies herself over being old and it's quite possible my father's fatal accident was deliberate - he was terrified of his impending birthday. We are a staggeringly vain family. In my case, there's a strong element of consciously rejecting pressures to be yooful. I used to stare look at older women with my body type, trying to anticipate what was going to happen to me - getting used to it before time, as it were. I thought I was slightly nuts to be doing this, but am quite glad I did it now.

Oh, and I'm dead pretty of course Hairy legs an' all.

It does trouble me how many women seem so fixated on how they look. I think they look in mirrors more than I do. I think they need to have drummed into them by their mothers that vanity is a sin.

I wonder how often a little girl of 3 - 11 these days is told that vanity is sinful. Instead they have shoved into their faces a woman's value is a big wedding or being a fashion plate or buying fake breasts and catching a football player. Your wedding will be the happiest day of your life and by the way you want the Disney princess outfit for Christmas which will preclude your climbing trees.

I don't think vanity is sinful - like everything else, it's a matter of degree. I do try hard to compliment little girls on something other than their looks, but the impulse is strong! And I'm fighting a tsunami of media & cultural imperatives.

I really do see "Princessing" as a fundamental feminist issue. And I wish somebody would give Rhianna the sharp slap she so enjoys tell pop stars to stop promoting themselves as sex toys.

I genuinely don't think I ever have complimented a girl on looks. I would just never consider it. You aren't responsible for yoru looks and to say you look pretty is just so ugh... You want them to be doctors and leading business women not fashion plates so part of that process is ensuring they see worth in the things that actually matter.

Also not all parents have children stuck in front of televisions watching rubbish. Lots of little girls like climbing trees. I loved my pen knife as a child etc.

These things do not suddenly come to girls. Unless mothers and fathers work with the girls they will end up churnign out girls fit for nothing but use as bride fodder.

I think if more people were saying to girls don't look in the mirror as that's a waste of time or vanity is a bit sinful and that were our current morals girls would find things easier. There is no understanding that fussing for hours over your looks might be morally wrong.

Those who don't have a religion often say well I imbue values through my atheism - but do they really do that or do they just leave chidlren to a moral vacuum?

Time short - so a couple of my favourite links wrt to this topic:

theshapeofamother.com/

operationbeautiful.com/

Wrt to little girls and vanity/mirrors etc - we were away in a cottage with friends who have a 4 year old DD - we have a 4 year old DS. Friends DD was looking in the mirror and "preening" etc and I mentioned that DS never does etc (there was a bit of a feminism rant discussion going on) and the mum said "but I hardly look in the mirror" etc - (and she is very straight forward minimal to no make up etc - no hair "do") -

So I grabbed off the table the disney princess comic for girls belonging to the DD and lo and behold princesses in front of mirrors brushing their hair....

The mum was and ...

Also good for the feel good factor and antidote to media are the talks on youtube.

Critical thinking: a much maligned force for good.

Like garlic said, vanity or being concerned with how you look is a problem when it takes over.
I am not terribly interested in fashion, not at all in make-up, but do like it when I for instance see a photo that flatters me.
I also look into mirrors to make sure that my skirt is not stuck in my knickers and that I don't have baby puke down my back - well, not so much anymore recently, but you get my drift.

I worries me how many adolescent girls/young women seem to aspire to the same look; like I said above, all young porn starlet IMO. Apart from any moral judgement, I just don't see the attraction: in my wildest sowing wild oats days, I never, ever wanted to look like some airbrushed, inflated, painted, always available airhead.
I really don't geddit

And don't get me started on all the excessive lady garden grooming that goes on - WHY?

Re values: I am an atheist, but do buy in to what Jesus had to teach. Not because I believe he was the son of god, but because I think he was Right. We ought to all look after those more vulnerable than us and treat everybody as we would like to be treated ourselves. And that applies to individuals and communities and whole countries/governments IMO.

I also agree as someone wrote upthread, men might well struggle with the concept of ageing and dying (so sad about your dad, garlic) as much as women do, but they don't seem to worry so much solely on looks: grey hair distinguished, bald head sexy and the rest they manage with a healthy dose of delusion: 'She'd be lucky to have me' - beergut and all .
We could learn (a bit) from that....

So glad you pointed that out, forkful :) One mother of one girl, now awakened to what other people are teaching her DD about herself ...

Lots of interesting threads here. Loving Garlics particularly.

I'm 47, 4 kids (youngest 2 SLD), have 2:1 degree gained at 45 and am now doing PGCE...after reading some of the threads I'm wondering if it's worth the grief if my age will make me unemployable in this already stretched to it's limit high unemployment time.

But woke up at 47 and had an epiphany of sorts; realised that actually it was ok to end my unhappy marriage after struggling for years and accepting my lot and feeling (being made to feel) that i should improve my attitude towards it (In other words have lots of sex I didn't want or need, just to keep him happy and functioning without massive bad attitudes and depression from him)
Not that he's a bad person, just not for me. Realised it years ago but didn't feel I should change things as it wasn't fair on A) the kids B) him.
Got to 47 and thought 'what about me though?' and now I'm happier than ever before.The kids are fine (He's not but there you go) and It worked out better than I thought it might.

I'm definitely not invisible and am a "legend" apparently amongst my daughters friends and peers, have had 4 nights out on the beer with them over last couple of weeks and had a total blast! (although I'm more than ready for me bed by midnight!)

I think a lot of it is your attitude towards yourself and others. I love being with young people but I love being with people my own age or older too. I try to see good in everyone as much as possible.

PS I don't have grey hair- right now it's purple and bright pink- but my nan never went grey til she was 85 and me dad never went grey at all (died at 65) so here's hoping I have their hair genes!!! Also me dads slim genes last as long as possible!

I agree. It's often about mental attitude. I don't think a lot about what I wear. I tend to wear a uniform whether for work or home and stick with that. However some men and women get a lot of pleasure out of trying out and wearing a lot of different clothes and that's fine too if it makes them happy.

Health issues though must be a real problem for people as they age when they surface. Those of us without them so far are lucky.

Do look at happiness statistics - people 50 - 70 are a lot happier than 30 - 40 by the way so really we have the best to come.