I am a middle-aged menopausal woman who has had 3 children, a career and a long marriage

[OrmIrian]

i have gained weight, have lines on my face and look my age.

Why do I feel apologetic? Why do I feel uncomfortable about how I look because I don't look like a 19 yr old?

Why do the facts about my looks and my body cancel out the facts in my title? Why can a woman not feel proud of her achievements inspite of the natural deterioration of her body?

Not original sentiments I know but it just struck me how much effort I put into looking 'right' and how bloody stupid it is.

I think that if young girls and women were brought up to take better care of themselves and make the most of themselves, they probably wouldn't spend so much time worrying about how they look as they would have been taught the skills rather than fending in the dark for themselves and mostly looking a fright despite spending a lot of time and energy on their appearance. Looks are like anything - it takes skill to make the best of them!

I feel, in many ways, happier about my looks than I did 25 years ago; but that is because I was really quite, er, well, fucked-up about my looks and body then.

I am 48 and encroaching age is bugging me, really - which is rather my own fault, though, as I work on a women's magazine and am surrounded by glossy nymphets

What tosh, Bonsoir I know enough about health & beauty care to publish a shelf-full of books. I started my face & body moisturising regime at 15. Sure, I've looked reasonably soignee for most of my life (until 5-6 years ago) but the net result of all that 'bothering' was a deep sense that I was flawed without zillions of lotions and treatments.

I'd rather young women just enjoy being themselves, however they chooce to express that :)

There isn't enough to know about beauty to fill a shelf full of books - that's the point. If you are educated in the essentials, you won't waste time with all the rubbish that is written about it for the ignorant and insecure

I just reread the OP:
I think the key word is that OrmIrian and lots of women out there feel 'apologetic' for the fact that they are no longer their shiny 19 year old selves.
I do kind of see what she means - although I don't feel it yet myself.

It is quite funny though when my age comes to light and people (often mothers with DCs similar ages to mine, but half my age ) are shocked. Which I am under no illusion is due to my amazing looks, but maybe more to do with attitude? And health, of course.
So, I will run after my boys in the park, and sit on the floor to play with my toddler and wear trainers and have a vague notion of what's going on in the charts etc etc.
I know grandmothers younger than me who have fully embraced the 'I cannot do X, Y and Z because of my Age' - not because they can't, but because their age will not allow it .

Re beauty: I think it depends v much what you mean by 'beauty': the overwhelmingly large majority of people who are young, happy, healthy and fit will look beautiful IMO.
Anything beyond that is fashion: certain body shape ideals, width of eyebrows, whiteness of smile (anybody seen the Sunday Times Style bit on it today?), hairyness or not, all depends on time and place.

Maybe we should all cross-stitch one of those subversive needlecraft thingies: 'I am Old Hag - hear me roar!'

(Damn you, Xenia, your posts from yesterday made me look at Lens replacement surgery again )

One of the things I really appreciate about my mother is that she brought us up totally insulated from 'beauty'. She didn't wear make up, or perfume, dye or particularly style her hair or subscribe to any of the beauty myths in any way. So we didn't either. I don't have any routine other than washing my hair every other day, and I don't look any different from anyone else my age as far as I can see. It's all such a total waste of time IMO. Great if you have fun with how you look, but it seems to me a sort of slavery to feel that you have to spend hours and piles of money on something that essentially makes very little difference.

However I know that I come from an unusually academic and fairly high achieving family with sometimes very different values than the world at large, including a value set that isn't very interested in looks (except for the dramatic or artistic). It's all about the mind, and alongside that comes a value on knowledge and experience which means that being old is good too. My father's parents were writing well into their 70's for example.

I've also been blessed by knowing some pretty amazing older women, both friends of my grandparents and through work. So I don't see being old as a bad thing, except for the bodily frailties side (Alzheimers, arthritis etc). I'd love to be like some of those women in a few years time (I'm 40 so a bit of a spring chicken really).

I also think that we have a very limited view of beauty. My godmother had the most fantastically wrinkled face. I don't know why we've got so hung up on the idea that the only good face is a smooth one. The person I hold as my greatest work role model is going white and I think looks amazing (rather like a high court judge), again why do we see going grey as such a bad thing - with the right facial colouring it can look amazing.

I used to know an older model who is (I believe still is) very successful internationally. She's amazingly radiant, with swishy white hair, and is one of those people whose charm just makes you want to be her friend! Unfortunately I have none of her qualities - even my hair's dug its heels in. I'll stop colouring it when it's gone white, but it's determinedly iron atm - and is thinning, dammit!

I disagree that everyone finds age unattractive in all women. There've always been the graceful beauties with Andes-like bone structure, who genuinely improve with age. I think all but the most unevolved misogynist finds such women beautiful.

Sadly, I ain't one of 'em ... I compensate with eccentricity!

Terrible grammar above. Hope I'm not developing a weak mind to go with the body

yes, like new head of the IMF christine lagarde

.. weak-minded and eccentric??

Yes, she is attractive. Bloody annoying that the media care so much about it, though.

no wait, that was in reply to nooka! whoops

Most normal British women have much more important things in their life than beauty routines. I dobn't even know what one is and feel I look pretty good. It's why English women are so much easier to live with than the French. It's one of our strengths that we don't tend to go in for "regimes".

I agree with nooka that insulation does help. My lack of television helps. The fact I don't surround myself with silly women who fuss on about face cream but would be with people talking about the euro etc etc

I'm sure religions help too as they tend to illustrate what really matters in life rather than the things people think matter (or your own moral code)

CL looks good but I am just as content with Ms Merkel. Women can be as they choose.

Christine Lagarde has white hair and wrinkles but still looks great and is highly respected - I think it comes down to an inner confidence.

I guess this whole subject has come to the fore in my life because at the same time that I an going through the menopause (and not enjoying it much to say the least!) my DD is beginning to grow into a young woman. I think she is utterly beautiful in every way and am thoroughly enjoying watching her change. The contrast is extreme between us - as it should be of course. I also have in my mind the way my mother just seemed to collapse health (and looks) wise after the menopause, and I do feel a massive sense of dread that that will be my lot too.

Maybe teenage girls are meant to be there as inimations of mortality for us all

Ah, Orm, see, I had the good sense to only produce boys. Little boys so far. God help my self-esteem when they bring home young goddesses when I am in my 60s - another downside of being a middle-aged mum!

"Christine Lagarde has white hair and wrinkles but still looks great and is highly respected - I think it comes down to an inner confidence."

LOL, I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that she is a former sportswoman who is amazingly healthy!

"I also have in my mind the way my mother just seemed to collapse health (and looks) wise after the menopause"

I may be deluding myself, but I really don't feel this has been the case for me. There was no dramatic acceleration of aging when I went through the menopause over 2 years ago. Maybe it's yet to kick in.

In fact, I feel healthier and am fitter, (and thinner, although maybe I shouldn't mention that on this thread), than I've been for most of my adult life. Sport has been the key for me, and actually I'm a huge fan of sport as a counterragent to all the negative stuff we feel about our bodies, whatever our age.

I think the menopause can act as a wake-up call for many women - either you continue not taking very good care of your health, and you slide into decline, or else you realise that by taking very good care of your health you really can make a difference to the way you feel (and look).

My mother had a wake-up call a couple of years after the menopause when my sister got engaged - she wanted to look nice for the wedding and went on a diet and generally got herself into shape.

onehand - I has my exercise Road to Damascus moment about 20yrs ago when I started step classes. Then moved on to the gym and finally running. I was up to half-marathon distances on the weekend and 2 shorter runs during the week. I was superfit and toned. Loved it! In my early 40s I felt just like you. But I have developed knee problems, exacerbated my lower back problems, broke my left foot, torn a calf muscle and developed tendonitis in my right foot..... and now I am too sore to run any more Short of taking up swimming (yawn!) I think the exercise boat has sailed. Hence lots of long walks with the dog.

Some contributors to this thread seem to be making the mistake of actually believing age is all in the mind. Having crawled out of bed today like a 25-year-old with flu (!) I felt it necessary to point out that ageing is real and, for many, starts earlier than you think.

Arthritis begins around 35 in my family - we ignore it but, by 60, it's restricting one's capabilities despite various treatments. Type2 diabetes and underactive thyroid are not diagnosed until the symptoms are bad; many 45+ individuals are dragging themselves through the day, doing what they can to mitigate the effects of these possible illnesses. People with a genetic predisposition to other systemic illnesses, such as heart disease, begin to suffer effects in middle gae no matter how fit they are. Cumulative stress leads to syndromes such as CFS (me), FM, RA and Lupus (worse) that could not have been predicted when young. It goes on.

I'm clearly not saying age is all bad, nor that one shouldn't do one's best to stay fit. It's a fallacy - and vanity - to suppose a healthy attitude is al it takes, though. Those who are past their early 50s and suffer no effects should be grateful, not smug!

x-post, Orm.

Ha! Arthritis...yes. I have that to look forward to Mum is crippled with it and a crumbling spine too.

OHF, you didn't say what age you are, or whether your menopause has actually finished (it takes 15 years in my family). How were both your grandmothers in their 70s? I'm delighted for you, to be in tip-top condition, but would ask you not to extrapolate that to all women!!

Slightly ashamed confession: I'm buying a Slendertone. I used to have one - a 'friend' nicked it - and they do work. £100 I can't afford, on credit because I'd quite like to be same trouser size on waist and hip!!!

I'm 54 - nearly 55, garlic. My mother is 86, and although she has slowed down now, she - and my dad, were very active, and could manage a 10 mile walk at least into their early 80s. Dad still does his exercises every single day, although now crippled by osteoarthristis in his knees.

My grandmothers died when I was 13 and 17, when I was still very self obsessed, and not really analysing how active they were after the menopause - in fact because my family tend to have children late, I didn't know either of them before their menopauses.

I'm aware that so far I've been lucky, and some people have age-related problems that interfere with their lives - I didn't mean to sound insufferably smug. However there are also people who think themselves into old age, and I do think it's important, like my dad, to challenge your body physically, within your own limitations.

:) Thanks, OHF.