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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am a middle-aged menopausal woman who has had 3 children, a career and a long marriage

150 replies

OrmIrian · 10/11/2011 20:57

i have gained weight, have lines on my face and look my age.

Why do I feel apologetic? Why do I feel uncomfortable about how I look because I don't look like a 19 yr old?

Why do the facts about my looks and my body cancel out the facts in my title? Why can a woman not feel proud of her achievements inspite of the natural deterioration of her body?

Not original sentiments I know but it just struck me how much effort I put into looking 'right' and how bloody stupid it is.

OP posts:
Xenia · 12/11/2011 22:38

I think teenagers are rarely likely to think they look good.

Anyone can post whether they have children or not. No reason anyone should have children. It's a personal decision.

(nik, the laser blended vision is permanent. I suppose if someone were to get cataracts in old age it would not stop that. I certainly feel it was worth the money - it seems silly to use an artificial aid if you can cure the problem. it's no different from damaging your leg and having an operation rather than deciding to walk with a stick for the next 20 years. Professor Reinstein is lovely (I am not on commission by the way))

nikos · 12/11/2011 23:24

Thanks Xenia, glasses are particularly hard to deal with when you have never had to use them. Probably cant afford it but will do a bit of investigation. Think defo worth doing if spare funds allow.

nikos · 12/11/2011 23:27

Thinking about things your body used to do, does anyone remember jumping out of bed in the morning ready to start the day. Takes me longer now, but wonder if that is to do with having three kids?

kerrymumbles · 12/11/2011 23:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

garlicBread · 13/11/2011 00:40

Grin Kerry! They should put electrolysis on the NHS ...

Nikos, I can assure you it gets harder to leave the bed regardless of DC! Also, I don't wake up for at least three hours afterwards. If at all.

sakura · 13/11/2011 06:37

I read an article about an increase in middle aged women in the US committing suicide. What could it be ? pondered the researchers. What's wrong with women?
Those smug bastards.

When billions and billions of dollars' worth of patriarchal propaganda gets churned out every single day designed to convince women that the only valuable women are a) young b) beautiful

Yes, it is done on purpose, not just for capitalist reasons (to get us to buy the pots of gloop) but also for patriarchal reasons. Actually I would say creating propaganda for the patriarchy is the main reason this , and that capitalism and money-making is secondary to that.

I'm thirty, still got my looks, but I can see the invisibility looming ahead of me. In a non-patriarchal society that valued women, ageing would be seen as a good thing. (I also think that in a non-patriarchal society, ageing and possibly dying too, wouldn't be feared to the extent they are right now. I think life would be gentler all round)

I find that the best thing to do is not watch TV!

Xenia · 13/11/2011 08:07

Surely it mainly affects women who are superficial and bother too much about their looks (and the English thankfully have never been too much like that) ? If you out earn most men and are a leading surgeon or whatever your job is, you are validated every day never mind by those whom you care about, children etc.

Also no one is forced to watch television and films. Just giev them up. I don't feel I miss much by opting out of that. I think people might be a lot happier if they spend their spare time washing the feet of the poor or working longer hours or talking to their children than watching programmes which show women's bodies in a particular way.

sunshineandbooks · 13/11/2011 09:02

Xenia, don't take this the wrong way because I definitely consider you a role model and quite inspirational in many ways, but I think you are speaking from a privileged position and so completely fail to understand how what seems so obvious to you is so irrelevant to others.

In many ways I wish I'd had a mentor like you when I was younger. Who knows where I might be and how much I might be earning? The thing is, I didn't. My parents were lovely people but they had no money, knew no one who could even get me a bit of work experience let alone open a door to a potential career, couldn't support me at university (so I had to work through it instead of spending more time networking), and generally had a working class, parochial view on life. They are both long gone now and I will always love and admire them. They were good people and I wish there were more people like them. But if money is king (I don't think it is, but many people seem to believe that) then they did me a disservice. It has taken me years to learn and understand some of the things that your children (and I daresay you, too) knew almost instinctively from birth, and even having learned these things, some of those advantages will forever be denied me.

(I'm not unhappy with my life BTW and feel very positive about it at the moment.)

But this is an aside. The point I'm trying to make is that just as the ability to make good long-term choices in your life is affected strongly by the family and circumstances you are born into, so too is the ability to see through all the beauty crap - TV, advertising, etc. It's not just about personality and intelligence. It can't be - look at all the successful, highly intelligent, high-earning women out there who still tie themselves into knots trying to conform to this standard of youth and beauty.

And in many, many careers, they're not 'wrong' to try to do so. It doesn't matter how good they are at their jobs, how respected they are for what they do, they will still suffer as they age and lose their looks - take Kate Adie for example.

You can circumvent things to a degree by not caring personally, but if most other people care, you are still going to fall foul of it unless you are in an unusually powerful position.

And if you are brought up in a community where emphasis on appearance is normal and desirable, it can often take decades (if ever) to unlearn that and realise that what you do is actually more important. I know it sounds obvious to someone like you, but it really isn't to everyone. (And what if you never have the academic intelligence to forge a career in something that will pay you enough to make you feel good about yourself?) In fact, given the multi-billion-pound money-making machine that is the beauty industry, it would see that most people fall for it to a greater or lesser degree. This stuff is peddled from everywhere and you can't avoid it even by giving up TV or magazines (I'm like you in that respect and don't do either). You can't completely ignore billboards, shop fronts, bus sides, newspapers, or, more importantly, other people's attitudes.

Furthermore (if you are who I am pretty sure you are), you are still a very attractive woman indeed and will probably remain more attractive than most even as you age, so you're never going to be approaching this from the perspective of someone pretty ordinary looking sliding into obscurity.

I agree with you that it is far, far healthier to define your worth on what you do (not how much you earn), rather than what you look like, and this should definitely be a feminist principle. However, the way to do that IMO is to work on raising women's status generally and to get women to see through the harmful aspects of the beauty industry, not berate them for falling foul of it.

Xenia · 13/11/2011 09:40

I agree that many women and men can't help feeling looks matter. Indeed they help at work too.I don't think it hurts that 3 of my children are blonde and the rest don't look too bad. If you're 20 stone with a face like the back of a bus it can be harder to get jobs. Taller people earn more too. It is not against the law to discriminate on looks grounds as long as it's not sexist, racist etc. So I am certainly not suggesting looks don't have an impact.

I put up a few youtube videos (work stuff) and laughing as I type I get comments about my voice and breasts (good ones it must be said) so it's not that I don't understand the importance of looks. However a lot of what we do is behind a computer which is a wonderful tool. No one knows if you're a 40 stone working class one legged woman in Papua new guinea - the brilliance of what you write, draw or whatever can simply shine through. The internet is great at breaking down barriers. We're lucky to live in this age.

I think the main issue though is for people to change their thoughts. So you're sitting there thinking I'll never get that job as I loko ugly (lots of pretty women think they look bad - it's a psychological issue rather than an objective one). So you need to take that thought and dispel it. This must surely be the case for most negative thoughts ni all areas. Look on the bright side. Think of the positive. I'm not saying that's easy.

Also it is a very bad sign of our age if looks matter. In England there used to be a cultural thing that make up was a bit common (too much make up still is) and that people with it slapped all over them were prostitutes and loose actresses and good girls didn't bother too much with it. If you're spending your life doing good then you don't fuss too much about how you look. We have loads of old sayings on this such as beauty is as beauty does, beauty if only skin deep etc etc. If that has changed for people that's very sad. If you've time to fuss about how you look then perhaps look at doing more volunary work or going to church/mosque etc more. It'a kind of selfishness to be obssessed with yourself too much. A moral wrong really.

So why don't I worry too much? There might be various reasons. I wasn't brought up to be a fashion plate on the basis my only worth was how rich a husband I might snag

.Or I don't look too bad, as you say although I'm not exceptional and some of it is due to me - I don't drink, smoke, eat junk food, weigh a healthy weight, eat well etc., get loads of sleep, only drink water etc.

Or as I say I avoid most visual media. I do read. I have read the Sunday Times and Telegraph today. I suppose I don't really find interesting the clothes bits so I'd be more likely to spend a lot of time reading about some chapt tortured in Chechnya than something about make up. I don't consort with women who go on about clothes. I've two daughters but we're more likely to talk about work stuff or current affairs or religion than clothes.

It's a topic that interests me as many women much prettier than I am seem to have so much internal agnst about how they look so I don't think it's really determined by how you look but how you feel inside. I am not saying I am totally immune., I don't wear flat shoes dungarees and have shaven head which of course I could if I chose. I quite like playing the game of looking okay but it's not important to me. Earlier this week I was camping near the equator on my own. I was shown how to fire a gun. My looks (other than being a candidate for rape I suppose) were not important.

Bonsoir · 13/11/2011 09:45

It is not stupid to put effort into looking nice. One of the greatest drivers of self-esteem is liking one's own reflection in the mirror - and this has nothing to do with what other people perceive, only your own self-perception.

I am 45 and I don't look 19 but it doesn't bother me at all. And I wear whatever I like. If you don't like the way you look, make changes.

GinSlinger · 13/11/2011 09:51

I'm 56 and have no idea what 'age' I look but I'm actually quite happy with how I look. Earlier this year I decided to stop colouring my hair and the grey doesn't look bad at all. I'll never wear a bikini again but I'm fit and healthy and can wear (and afford) good clothes that my younger self might not have appreciated and certainly couldn't have afforded. I care about how I look but I no longer worry about how I look.

GinSlinger · 13/11/2011 09:52

when I say I have no idea what 'age' I look, I mean that people always say that I look younger but I'm not sure what they mean by that. When my mother was 56 she had her hair washed and set, I have a cut and blowdry, for instance.

Bonsoir · 13/11/2011 09:54

GinSlinger - when my mother was my age she wore brown wool pleated skirts to mid-calf and Ferragamo flats!

GinSlinger · 13/11/2011 09:56

I like the sound of your shorts

Bonsoir · 13/11/2011 09:58

A bargain (EUR 35) in Benetton Wink

PacificDogwood · 13/11/2011 10:46

There is a huge 'class'/education/wealth divide in respect to how important a certain look is: young, beautiful in a porn-starlet kind of way, v high maintance is IME much, MUCH more common in young women with less of a perspective in life. Gross generalisation, I know, but it's what I see day to day.

I some respects I suppose the pressure to look 'fit' is higher on young women

Bonsoir, I gather you have always been fashion forward, and by the sounds of it still are. Good on you!
I, OTOH, have always been not terribly interested in fashion, would have fainted at the thought of wearing sequined shorts when I was 19, and now would just feel I was wearing fancy-dress .

But I love living vicariously through you and all other colourful Birds of paradise Grin.

Xenia · 13/11/2011 10:50

Women can make their own decisions about what effort they want to put into how they look. My moral point was that if you spend 3 hours a day in front of the mirror etc then I doubt God would be too happy with you and it is a very vain and selfish way to life. So ditch the concern about how others think you look which only makes you feel unhappy and find a better moral path.

However most people of both sexes tend to want to conform to some norms of whatever culture of which they are a part in terms of dress and looks and I don't have a problem with that mostly. It's when people define themselves only by their looks and the man who keeps them that they really do damage other women and ensure women's role remains as pretty thing there to please visually but with little other usefulness.

TheFidgetySheep · 13/11/2011 10:56

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 13/11/2011 11:02

Xenia, I never considered myself or my upbringing in any way privileged until I was confronted with the realities of other people's lives in my professional life.
The fact that I had loving parents who encouraged me in whatever I was into at the time, gave me a strong moral compass, at times gave me what I needed, NOT what I wanted, had a massive impact on who I am.
That is not to say, that I credit them with every achievement I have ever made, mind Grin. Much as I don't 'blame' them for every problem/failure I might have encountered.

I do think role models have a huge influence and unfortunately mass media at present do not provide a great selection unless you actively go looking for them.

Xenia · 13/11/2011 12:59

Indeed so keeping our children aware of good role models, women business leaders, female politicians, women sportspeople or whatever is a great way to help girls realise they are not going to lives lives off meal earnings on their back or in the kitchen and make them realise how much many professional women really enjoy their work.

OrmIrian · 13/11/2011 18:25

Bonsoir- I am fairl happy with what I see in the mirror. It's not that I hate my looks- on the contrary, I can't spare the energy to hate them. I want to be given permission by society to say 'sod it! I am not going to conceal/pluck/reduce/enhance, I'd rather read a book/talk to my kids/get drunk/plant tulips'.

But we have a long way to go for that to be acceptable.

OP posts:
Xenia · 13/11/2011 18:30

Surely it just needs a two second change in your head. You could change that mind set now. Plenty of women don't bother with lots of things like that. What is stopping you? Would you sacked at work if you stopped wearing high heels or didn't wear make up etc?

MistyMountainHop · 13/11/2011 18:32

this thread is inspirational

its very sad that society places such massive value on youth and beauty for women, but not for men :(

i am nearly 32 and spent my late teens and 20's getting a lot of attention from men because of how i looked. and i have to admit i enjoyed it. i know that "time is running out" looks wise for me and the last couple of years i have been really scared of losing my looks but i am trying to deal with this and just not care.

i know there is more to me than my slowly fading looks, i am a great mother to my DC (most of the time) and i have a growing business that i am very proud of. i have a fantastic DH who adores me, great friends, and am a good friend, a great cook, and have a good personality. i am slim, fit and - thankfully- healthy, i exercise regularly and eat well, plus as i get older i am getting wiser too and find myself being the "agony aunt" to my friends. i am still interested in fashion and beauty but i am trying not to make that the be all and end all so i am trying to concentrate on these attributes, and developing as a person, rather than feeling, as i did in my 20's, that my looks were all i had to offer. i wonder if its a coincidence that it is only since entering my 30's that i have started to be interested in feminism?

Bonsoir · 13/11/2011 19:46

I think it's up to you! But then, I don't feel any under societal pressure about the way I look - I do what I please and it doesn't cause me any hassle out in the big wide world one way or the other.

Xenia · 13/11/2011 19:48

I was a feminist at 14 if not earlier. In my 20s I had a good career and children.

However like MMH I try to stay healthy in my 40s and reasonably fit. I've never minded male attention. It's not that difficult to get if you want it but it's certainly no the be all and end all of anything and never was for me.

I do think women need to think about these issues more though and I find it very very sad that so many women even young pretty ones are not happy with how they look and spend so much time and energy thinking about it and worrying about it. It's such a waste of effort.