I am a middle-aged menopausal woman who has had 3 children, a career and a long marriage

[OrmIrian]

i have gained weight, have lines on my face and look my age.

Why do I feel apologetic? Why do I feel uncomfortable about how I look because I don't look like a 19 yr old?

Why do the facts about my looks and my body cancel out the facts in my title? Why can a woman not feel proud of her achievements inspite of the natural deterioration of her body?

Not original sentiments I know but it just struck me how much effort I put into looking 'right' and how bloody stupid it is.

I'm turned 50 and keep myself washed and brushed and moisturised and healthy as much as I can. What I don't do is dye bits, paint bits and panic about looking as if I'm getting older.
But I've always been comfortable in my own skin and with my abilities and achievements, so for me so suddenly start panicking would be an unwanted and ridiculous change in my personality and values.
I have friends that are very much the opposite, and I don't mind as that is their choice. I just think it is rather sad that they seem to cling to the past rather than embracing the future. I'm definitely a Red Hat Member.

Yes, garlicBread, it is more to do with age, now that I think about it - I was both large and thin when I was young and was still listened to regardless!

I think I found it very hard because I'd gone from being the 'young' person in the office prior to DD, to coming back from ML to find most of my 50-something colleagues had been made redundant and I was now the oldest one there in a bunch of 20 something graduates - and it was hard adjusting my mindset! What tigerdriver says strikes a chord - I don't feel particularly grown up so I don't want to be the office old bag (which is what some of the younger women in the office definitely make me feel like!), not just yet...

Young people are not invisible to me, largely because I'm surrounded by them, but also because I'm still identifying with them, a wee bit... interesting. Need to go and think about this...

My whole family is also eccentric, it's the idea of becoming mundane that fills me with fear. Middle-aged in the mind, a flabby intellect.

riverside - we don't do mundane in our house! Fat, middle-aged maybe, mundane? Never

BTW those kind souls who complimented me on my photos - please be aware they are at least 3 years old My kid are still drop-dead gorgeous though naturally!

SGM - I am still pondering the hair thing. Have I met you?

Re work. I had a meeting a few weeks back with one director from our company and a woman from one of our suppliers. I have got used to being an Honorary Man at work thanks to the nature of my job and the dept. So my appearance is irrelevant - clean, brushed and clothed is my aim most days. But the woman was young, blond and apparently gorgeous. It was blatantly obvious the director thought so - which is fine I guess apart from the fact that it changed the dynamic of the meeting. It pointed up the sex of the people in the room. Uncomfortably for me. Does that make sense at all?

OrmIrian - yes I've experienced that effect too.

I am one of the few women in my department (5 out of 40ish) and the only senior manager. I have sat in supplier meetings where there is an involuntary sucking in of guts and sitting up straight when the supplier turns out to be young and female and the conversation, despite direction, isn't as robust.

Its deeply frustrating. I can't work out if it suggests that my male colleagues pitch at a lower level because they have an innate belief that pretty women = not as robust or bright as man or plain woman OR if they are too distracted. Either way its ridiculous.

I can also empathise about feeling guilty about not caring that much about my looks.

I hope no one minds me butting in here. I am 35, so just on the cusp of this but still young and thin enough to not quite be there yet. I hope it doesn't feel presumptuous for me to post this because I haven't experienced it yet. Although I have just started to do something new and was easily the eldest among those on the training course by 10 years (and the only parent), which did make me feel a bit 'different' though I choose to see it as giving me an advantage (should have taken up a job in PR I reckon ).

HMCs post really resonated with me. As I've got older, I've become more aware of people my own age and older and less aware of those younger than me. Is it a case that we tend to notice our peers much more than those out of our own age group? We may become invisible to those younger than us, but if those our own age and older still see us maybe we are being conned into worrying about it more than we need to so that we keep shoring up the beauty industry. Isn't middle-aged the biggest demographic there is? Isn't there power in numbers if we're all seeing each other?

The sort of man who only takes note of young, beautiful women is likely to be a sexist or misogynist even when confronted with a drop-dead-gorgeous 19-year-old I think. Weirdly, I find that gives me hope. My abilities are more likely to be taken seriously as I get older, while as a younger woman I would always be worrying about whether I was working for a misogynist or chosen for my looks (I am not particularly attractive, but I've had a couple of sticky moments where I thought I was doing something because I was good at it, where it turned out someone was just after a quick shag).

I think the best way to tackle age discrimination is to achieve more unity among women, middle-aged women particularly. In a way we need more groups like the WI - there is power and influence in so many women grouping together like that.

Of course, what we actually have is a media hell-bent on fostering divisions (WOHM/SAHM, BF/FF) and competition - look at so-and-so's cellulite, choose a 'fat' friend so you look better, drop 10 years with this ridiculous beauty regime and be the envy of all your friends (and their husbands), be a yummy mummy, etc. I have felt much more secure about my appearance since I stopped buying and reading any magazines aimed solely at women.

God, I don't feel apologetic, I feelf antastic, I feel far happier with myself at 45 than I ever did at 25/30. I felt a bit invisible when I started a new job a year ago, where everyone was under 30 and 99% male, but now 3 other women over 35 have joined the company and the atmosphere has changed enormously, thankfully.
I dress for myself , no one else, I've never worn make up or been bothered about how I look, I don't know if that's because I have a DH who adores me regardless , I've never had to impress men and doubt I'd even recognise being chatted up or flirted with, it's something I've never been aware of and I'm not hugely sociable anyway.
Teens and children are invisible to me now, probably due to DD being 21 and living independantly, I have 14 year old and 11 year old nephews and they irritate me in a way I can't remember DD doing.

I love my life now but I'm very concious of the fact that my mum and MIL both died young at 48 and 57 , I can't bear the thought of only having only a few years left, I want to grow old with DH and die within hours of each other at about 90. People of FIL's age (70 next year) are dying off all around us and the amount of people we know of with alzheimers is frightening, 3 women FIL knows in the last couple years alone .
I've turned this thread rather maudlin, sorry about that.

I don't feel apologetic at all! I'm nearly 43, have lines, fat bits (no exercise, too much cake), and a daily battle with the tweezers. I have 3 amazing kids, and moderately successful career, good friends and a brilliant DH who adores me (and my fat bits).

I have honestly never, ever felt pressurised to look a certain way. I'm clean and tidy - I don't have much money to spend on clothes etc, but it's just the way it is, and it's amazing what you can do on a budget.

I find that as I grow older I admire strengths and accomplishments rather than looks. I completely don't buy into the whole sleb culture, and mourn the dumbing down of society.The obsession with image is very unhealthy, so much better, I find, just to stick my fingers in my ears and my head in the sand

I was contemplating the following:

• in the UK, there is a HUGE emphasis on the importance of youth (which I think is a leftover from the 60s) and even as someone in their late 20s (very late, I'm now 30 ) I've started to feel disenfranchised, feck knows how those in their 80s feel
• major generalisation, but in France older women are more revered and respected and "upper teens" doesn't seem to be a pre-requisite for being considered beautiful. Part of this, I feel, might be down to a linguistic difference. In English you "are" a certain age. You are 30, or 45 etc. thereby implying that you age is an integral part of your being. Whereas in French you "have" an age. You have acquired it, compare "I am 80 years old" to "I have 80 years"

mal - I felt like you do (well the first paragraph) until a few years back TBH. It feels as if I have tottered over the boundary from 'young' to 'middle-aged'. Which is why all of a sudden I don't want to care about my looks.

Re younger people. I suspect they are invisible when you no longer have association with them. Teenagers were an annoying barely heard interference on the edge of my radar when I had little children - now they seem a lot louder! And I like them. It's small children that I find vaguely irrelevant now.

Hmm. I'm 45. I feel and genuinely believe look better now than I did 10 years ago.

Partly it's because I had counselling 3 years ago and ditched a whole load of childhood shit that I hadn't known was bugging me and made me feel liberated. Partly it's my re-discovery of feminism and the gradual acceptance of myself the way I am. Partly it's that I took up running a couple of years ago and regular exercise releases dopameine and makes you feel fabulous, strong and competent and horror of horrors, empowered. (Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh) And partly it's that I've recently had a younger lover who was fabulous in bed and proved to me that it's not just theory that women can be beautiful and attractive when they're middle aged, it's practice too. So young people definitely aren't invisible to me, particularly those with obviously good abs.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you have a whole load of stuff going on that makes you feel good about yourself, you look and feel fabulous. Orm, have you thought of going over to LRD's feminist well-being thread? It's all about doing stuff for you that makes you feel good, but without buying into the spending a fortune to reach the patriarchal beauty-standard bollocks thing.

But what's wrong with caring about your looks?

I think the problem is when we want to measure up to a standard which is defined by our society as being a 19 year old girl's looks. We've been there, done that. Now I'm 45, I still care about the way I look, I just don't expect to look like a 19 year old and I don't expect to look fabulous all the time. When I'm 80 (if I get there) I expect I'll still care about my looks - I'll want to look like the best 80 year old version of me I can manage, I won't be trying to look 45 (or worse, 19). And I'll accept that I don't have to be the best version of me all the time - just when I can be arsed, IYSWIM.

I like my looks. At 54, I'm never going to feature on drivelly Britains Top Model type shows (who'd want to be a model anyway?). I have grey hair, which I spend a fortune getting coloured, wrinkles, and sags. I definitely don't look young for my age. But I'm strong and fit, and I love my body for what it can still do.

I feel a sense of release in being free of the "male gaze". I can talk to men of all ages without worrying about them fancying me inappropriately, which makes me much less shy with men. I can walk down the street without builders shouting at me - and if they did, I'd tell them where to fuck off to. I can run across the fields feeling free of threat. I can walk alone in the dark. I don't measure myself by the sexual attention of men.

The other evening I went out for a meal with three female friends. The youngest was about 46/47, and I was the oldest. But I looked round the table, and thought how fabulous we all are. Good looking, characterful, intelligent and vital. We laughed until we almost cried, and had a wonderful evening, and felt revitalised.

Apparently Diana Athill said, "the sooner women no longer care what men think about them, the better," according to the above friends. It's a good motto to have.

Eleanor I think that's exactly it. There's nothing wrong in caring about your appearance, it's the standard used to measure it by that's the issue.

I would be just as wary of someone who clearly hasn't washed/brushed their hair in a week as I would of someone who has spent several hours perfecting copious amounts of makeup, straightening hair and walking in sky-scraper heels. Each to their own and all that, but we do make judgements.

To me, it's a reflection of how much you value and like your body. So I notice things like hair-washing, trimmed nails, an obvious sense of unique style (which isn't the same thing as being fashion conscious) or simply being clean, comfortable and practical in the skin and clothes you're in.

Can't remember who said it now, but I think it may have been snowmama (sorry if it wasn't) here on MN who said it's about separating the fun from the burdensome. So it's ok to experiment with clothes and hair colour and makeup if you enjoy it, but you should look to yourself to see if it's because you genuinely enjoy changing your appearance with these things or if you are doing it because you somehow feel 'lesser' if you don't conform to the patriarchal beauty standard.

"But what's wrong with caring about your looks?"

Nothing at all, if that's what floats your boat. But I wish to retain the right to look like a bit of a scruff if I can't be bothered to do otherwise. Without feeling like some sort of inadequate freak.

"The other evening I went out for a meal with three female friends. The youngest was about 46/47, and I was the oldest. But I looked round the table, and thought how fabulous we all are. Good looking, characterful, intelligent and vital." what a wonderful sentiment - and 4 fantastic adjectives. I feel that too when I get to have dinner with female friends. I feel rich - not financially, of course, but rich with life and friendship.

OrmIrian I agree with you, and that's what I mean about caring about your appearance. I bet even when you haven't brushed your hair and you're in tracksuit bottoms and a baggy T-shirt, you probably still look well-cared-for (e.g, clean skin, trimmed nails, etc). That's why I said about practical and comfortable being just as indicative of caring for your body as wearing a nice, co-ordinated outfit.

you know what - I haven't read everything as I'm in a bit of a rush - but I've scanned a few posts and it's giving me the virtual equivalent of OneHandFlapping's dinner moment. What a fantastic bunch of strong, honest, interesting women.

Agree hatwoman. I often get that feeling on here.

DH and I went out for a meal a few weeks back for our anniversary. it was lovely of course and nice to have some time just with him but there was a table full of older women (work colleagues I'd guess) and I actually thought that I'd quite like to be with them They were having such a good time. DH and I were quite sedate in comparison.

It's a really good question for debate.

Back when I was a child once most women got to a certain age they purchased their clothing from M&S, shoes from Clarks and settled into a "middle aged" style which involved not worrying too much about looks other than ensuring everything was clean and well presented.

Now that I am in my early 40s I'm quite glad that I can still shop where I please and wear whatever style I fancy ( although increasing waist size means that stylish options are limited) but increasingly it just seems like such an effort to make myself look good when the raw material is degrading. Does there come a stage when it doesn't matter to me? So not delighted to be still having the same old negative thoughts about my body and worrying about getting fat particularly when I seem to have come to a stage where I put on weight regardless of what I do.

It's interesting that most men don't seem to suffer from this. On holiday most of the well heeled couples in their forties/fifties, woman had the figure of a much younger model, whereas men seemed proud of their haunch.

Yes rookie - while it might be seen by some as liberation that as women age they aren't confined to stereotypes, it's really extending the tyranny a bit. "Yes I know that elasticated waist looks comfy and would be very practical but you can't, you just can't! What will you look like?"

And it has to be said that when I was younger and not all that well-groomed (to put it politely) I could put it down to the natural windswept look and got away with it - because I had line-free skin and a taut body. I think the tendency is to feel you have to make more effort to make up for the failures in the base material.

It's all such nonsense too. I ended up having a 10 minute debate at the airport with the make-up sales lady about the relative benefits of two different types of foundation.

Apparently one of them was really good at getting rid of wrinkles and one was best at evening out an imperfect complexion. Sadly I'm old and wrinkly enough to know that no foundation has that power, but desperate enough to wish it did.

I think one of the main issues is that there are very few celebrities out there who do look their real age due to plastic surgery and the ability to spend 3 hrs at the gym every day i.e. I am always going to fail when I consider that Jennifer Lopez and Mariah Carey are the same age as me, but then I guess she doesn't do all the household chores, work part time and look after her DCs ( real looking after as opposed to swanning around for a few minutes then handing them over to the nanny) , plus both have had had some work done to their faces. Oh and will be airbrushed for most photos.So what we are trying to emulate is actually impossible.

I try to emulate ladies who look good rather than following fashion too much. I'd like to be like Tania Byron who is known for what she does rather than what she looks at but always seems to be effortlessly stylish.

I think the best way to tackle age discrimination is to achieve more unity among women, middle-aged women particularly. In a way we need more groups like the WI - there is power and influence in so many women grouping together like that.

Could not agree more with this, sunshine. I would want them to be 'empowerful' groups - my neighbours here talk about laundry and cooking, which I'm afraid makes me want to run away to Mumsnet! When I had a nice big expense account, in my thirties and forties, I hosted lots of women's lunches and dinners. I've been pondering ways to start a low-key version in my reduced circumstances; you've made me move it up my list of things to do. Thanks!