Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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Last night I looked through countries by dominant religion, Aside from The Congo the ones that stuck out as hideous to women were majority Muslim. So I though that this is far too convenient for my argument and sifted through in more detail. China, awful to women starting with baby girls, no religion, but every (please correct me if I'm wrong) majority Muslim country is an awful place for a woman to be born. I'm pretty sure this horror is not exclusive to Islam, but it is inevitable for some reason, or many reasons. It may be that Islam only dominates in particularly impoverished nations? Or that those nations are way behind for women? It may be that Islam slows progression for women?

I'm really not against Muslims, but I think the patterns of culture need examining. this may also be the same for all faith (I'm not saying it's not). But Christian countries have a few moderate and better places for women...still a looooooooooooong old way to go though.

No place is equal for a woman, yet.

Catherine "It would just mean rejecting a whole load of male patriarchal theology."

In the end I found it so hard to fight against all that male patriarchal theology that I rejected Christianity altogether. It just seemed so much easier.

Without the words in the religious books one would not have a language for God, therefore how can any God not be unfair toward women? If there really was a divine being wouldn't she have ensured that all followers would have access to an equal and just life? Not that men become the gift givers to allow women freedom, the kindness of one's husband is to be relied upon for a women to live in happiness?

messyisthenewtidy from my perspective, it's not about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's more a case of looking in the bath and realising there was no baby in there to start with. That's how I realised I was an atheist.

PosiesOfPoison Thu 20-Oct-11 09:33:27
Sharia law has no place in Britain EVER about anything

so would you ban religious marriages? would that be for all religions? so you couldnt get married in a church/mosque/ synagogue?

would you ban shariah compliant banking and trust funds?

would you ban people from praying, fasting, ritual ablutions?

would you ban people from saying salaam?

Sharia law is not required for people to do any of those things.

shariah law is not required for shariah law compliant banking? seriously?

the islamic marriage contract is just as much part of shariah law as the islamic divorce contract?

you still need two witnesses and a procedure of asking 3 times which is stated in shariah law?

so if you are not against islamic marriage but just against islamic divorce/khula?

An islamic marriage is a contract.
Sharia say 2 adult male witnesses or 1 adult male and 2 adult women ( nice bit of inequality going on there as well)
Nikah marriages are not reconsised in uk law and for it to be a lawful marriage then you would need to hold a civil cermony as well. If you hold a civil cermony then if you need to divorce then you can do so under exisiting uk divorce laws.

As to sharia compliant banking any bank can offer any type of banking product if they see a demand for it. You dont need a sharia law to do it, just a bank who is willing to offer a product that complies with the principles of sharia.

im confused, these acts are following shariah law, so you do not want to ban the following of shariah law, by banning islamic wedding ceremonies, that have no status in civil law, but you would want to ban the following of shariah law by banning islamic divorces through shariah council that have no basis in civil law?

even if a muslim has a civil cereminy as well as nikkah and civil divorce, they would still need a religious divorce in order to get re nikkahed, or to be islamicly considered as divorced, which is a seperate matter from civily being considered divorced.

and you are not opposed to a bank providing a product that follows shariah law,

and noone is even suggesting that we implement the criminal side of civil law,

so what exactly about the implementation of shariah law in regards to civil matters is anyone against?

I can only speak for me but i am against any court, sharia or otherwise that puts itself in conflict with the existing legal system of criminal and civil law.
I am against any legal system that says as a woman my evidence is worth half that of a mans.
I am against a system that has different rules and laws placed upon me just because i dont have a penis.
I am against a system that cannot be changed or reformed just because someone who died over 2000 years ago said so. The law to me should be contining to evolve and change to suit the modern world and our more enlightened times.
i want a laws made and upheld that treat men and women as equals and are applied regardless of gender.

Ok but what does that mean in practice? You are against shariah court but its ok if individuals who are unorganized follow shariah?

You would stop Islamic marriages, finance and people dividing inheritance according to shariah?

How would you implement this?

How would the disappearance of shariah courts benefit vulnerable Muslim women?

You would stop Islamic marriages, finance and people dividing inheritance according to shariah

Islamic marriage should be registred under uk law (same as a civil wedding) and then if a divorcee is required then a divorce can be obtained under the existing uk civil laws which will deal with child custody, disposal of assests, maintance ect. Finance banks can offer which ever products the market demands and as it will be a civil contract any problems should then be deathwith under the existing civil laws relating to contracts. Inheritance well the english law already allows anybody to make a will and divide their estate as they see fit but i would like to see muslims treat their male and female children equally, rather than treating their female children as a possession who passes from the father to the son.

How would the disappearance of shariah courts benefit vulnerable Muslim women?

Under uk law men and women are equal and are protected by these laws. I would like to see Imans and community elders encouraging the vunerable women of their community to use these laws as and when needed rather trying to apply their own rules and laws written over 2000 years ago which are heavly loaded in favour of the man.

You only have to read a few of those replies on the sharia council of britains own website to see that all your lofty ideas of islam are not what is happening at grass roots level and if you accept this than you are leaving muslim women in the hands of misguided fools without any right of appeal or proper legal address.

No Nailik, you don't need religion to marry or bank or speak or pray.

You may wish a religious person to bless your marriage but it isn't legally required and it's not legally required to divorce.

Like I said there's no place for Sharia here, we have a legal system.

cantspel so you would beable to have a religious marriage with an imam, that is also registered civilly,but not a religious divorce, only civil one?

i do accept that islamic communities have issues, and there are issues with shariah court, but i dont see how preventing women in abusive marriages from getting a religious divorce that would allow them to move away from their husbands, and move on with their lives, and remarry within their religion, without feeling as if they have still responsibilities as a wife to their ex, as they were married in religious and civil manners, and just divorced in civil manner would be helpful.

posie i know it is not a neccessity under uk law to have a religious marriage, but with your statement that there is no place for shariah law, would you say there is no place for shariah marriages? so would you ban marriages that follow shariah rulings?

shariah law encompasses everything, not just these matters, such as the saying of salaam, how to treat family and neighbours, how to pray, when to pray, how to give zakaat, how to fast.

if you are saying there is no place for shariah law, then you have to understand that you are saying that there is no place for any of this, as all islamic practices are covered by shariah law. so basically you are saying there is no place for practicing islam.

Nailak I think it is clear what posie is trying to say. She means that there is no place for shariah to have jurisdiction in the uk. You are free to follow its precepts in private if you wish.

isnt that the case already? isnt that the case with the shariah council?

nailak perhaps you can help us to understand something. Why is there a need for a shariah council? Can individual imams not perform the islamic divorces you have been referring to?

Yes, looking at the Sharia Councils pre historic ideas I would absolutely ban such sexist and vile crap from these shores. Christ alive, some of it was straight out of a Harry Enfield sketch... women no your place.

I will copy and paste a few ideas from their website to illustrate my point.
(I promise to quick search and not get very picky searching for things endlessly just to make Sharia look ridiculous):
Marriage in Islam is intended to protect the chastity of men and women alike, therefore it is the woman's duty to respond to her husband's requests for conjugal relations. She should not give silly excuses and try to avoid it.

The warning given to women whose husband is angry with her reaches such an extent that it would shake the conscience of every righteous wife who has faith in Allah and the last day. She is told that her prayer and good deeds will not be accepted, until her husband is pleased with her again.
Conclusion:
After this advice, if your wife should persist upon not responding to your sexual needs then you should divorce her. This is because a woman who can not have conjugal relationship should not be married in the first place.

Would you mind to tell me that if someone got married in Muslim countries, in where he can legally marry more than one wife and he did it. Then he plans to emmigrate to UK. Will his polygynous marriage be still valid? Or he needs to divorce some of his wives and remains only one wife?

Answer:
He should try to keep both wives. Either visiting the one, in her Muslim homeland from time to time if he can afford to do so or to bring one of them to U.K. through a valid visa. Just emigration to U.K., is not a valid reason to divorce one of them.

My name is Sister xxxx and i am applying for university this year, i wish to apply to study Medicine, however i was unsure about the shariah concerning the study of a subject where students have to undergo activities such as; Autopsies, human disection and touching male patients; hence seeing people's awrah. Please advice me in the best way with references to hadith (if possible) and islamic shariah law
Answer:
Assalam o alaikum,
Muslims do need female doctors, especially for the treatment of ladies. To become a doctor, you have to go through all such topics as you mentioned. It is a necessity because there is no other way to learn medicine. Sometime you have to tolerate a lesser evil to avoid a bigger one. So you can study in a medical college, preferably in a women college if available and then, after graduating, just treat the women only.

It is obligatory for a woman to cover her whole body whenever she comes out of home in accordance with the saying of Allah.
'O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when out of doors): That is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.' (33: 59).

The Arabic word for outer garment used in the Qur'an is 'Jilbab'. It is reported in an authentic hadith the when this verse was revealed, the women in Madina wrapped themselves in such a way that their heads used to be seen as if crows were upon them. They just left their eyes open to see the way when they walk.

A woman is required to cover her head whether she is alone or in presence of someone else in accordance to the saying of the Prophet (SAWS):

"Allah does not accept the prayer of an adult woman without s scarf".

As to why she is required to cover her body in such a way, the answer is that the woman herself is 'Awrah' (meant to be covered).

The main objective behind is to cover her eyes of the non-related (Mahram) men to avoid attraction or temptation. The display of the beauty or the part of woman and free mixing with men lead to scandals like that of Mr Clinton & Monica which is not acceptable in Islam which invites for a clean and pure society.

khula is supposed to be given by judges, or Qadis, not imams,

an imam doesnt have any minimum level of education/ knowledge etc, he is just a pious person who is able to lead the prayers, give sermons and is respected in the community.

a judge has to study jurisprudence in depth.

there is no reason why individuals who are qualified could not perform this function.

However it seems a group of muslim organisations and leading, well known sheykhs, and judges, decided that they need to organise this process, make it easier for women to know who to go to, how to contact them, where to go etc, because if you tell the majority of muslims to go to a sheykh/ qadi they would not have the first clue how to go about finding one.

However in doing so, other qualified people are under pressure to not step on the toes of shariah council, i use this phrase as it is an actual quote of what a sister was told.

so unless you pay the fees, travel to one of the offices etc it is hard to get khula.

on top of that, in some cases they have been inefficient, loosing paperwork and keeping women hanging on etc.

on top of this judges abroad will say you need to get the khula from the authority in the country that gave nikkah, as they cant quite get round the idea the shariah council is not actually a legal authority.

posie i am none the wiser, what exactly would you ban? the council? but if unorganised individuls give islamic khula then that is ok?

If a child's parents are divorced, at what age is it suitable for them to live with the father?

Answer:
Abdullah bin Ams bin Atas (RA) reported that a woman said:
'O Messenger of Allah. For this is my son, my womb has been a container, my lap has always carried him and my breast has been a feeder. His father now claims to take him away from me'. The Prophet (SAW) replied: 'You are more deserving to keep him as long as you don't marry.' (Ahmad, Abu Dawud).

Abu Huraira (RA) reported that the Prophet (SAWS) has given a lad a choice between his father and his mother. (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)

It is reported by Umarah Al-Jasmi (RA) that he said: 'Ali (RA) gave me a choice between my uncle and my mother and I was either seven or eight at that time.' (Al-Baihaqi)

Till the age of seven the mother has the sole right to have the custody of the child if she marries someone who is not related to the child, she loses her right in the custody. If the child were still under seven, he would be given custody of a female (preferably among the mother's relatives like his maternal aunt or grandmother). But if he is above seven, he is no more in need of a woman's care and he is to be in custody of the father. If the woman did not remarry, the child is given the choice to stay either with the father or mother. Whatever the choice he (the child) takes the other party will not be denied to see the child on a regular basis.

Basically if Islam wasn't so ingrained with sexism the Council could give the gift of sexist justice. Having Sharia is a definite admission that Islam is terribly sexist.

posies reading what you have just posted, I find myself wondering how any woman can sincerely and honestly believe that this is divinely inspired, the one true religion.

erm? since when is there only one interpretation of any religion?

nailak As quoted previously on the thread, from the shariah council website:

"Narrated by Abu Hurayrah that the prophet said, "if a man calls his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he goes to sleep angry with her, the angels will curse her until the morning."

I fail to see how there can be many interpretations of that, wishful thinking aside.