Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

.

I actually agree with Nailik. To take away choice IS an oppression but we have to make some tough decisions about what oppression is necessary for a society to function. The rights of your fist end where my nose begins etc.

To decide who or what's so damaging that it should be oppressed we need to have clear discussion.

I think I am now coming down in favour of banning face covering in public places as I think that does make it more difficult for society to function if we don't show our faces in courts, schools, hospitals etc. This would apply to motor cycle helmets, balaclavas and similar, not just robes.

just to let you know shariah requires a woman to take of her niqaab while in court...

and what you are suggesting would lead to some people not taking their kids to school and home schooling instead, and not going to hospital unless life or death situation.

and those who are being forced would have less contact with outside world as would probably not be allowed to leave their house.

oh and its no big conspiracy, just i only have basic bank account, and that doesnt offer debit card facilities,

if you want to know something really weird dh doesnt even have a bank account, all the money just comes to me

Nailik, why did some women in France refuse to go into court while their appeals were being heard because they had to take off their robes?

And now we are at the nub of it: the religion doesn't require it, yet some women would refuse to take it off unless it was a 'life or death' situation??

And if they will 'not be allowed' to leave the house unless wearing it, isn't it the attitude of those not 'allowing' them we need to target?

Still don't get it. You have just outlined why these garments are so oppressive.

But this is interesting thefatalfeminist.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/figments-of-patriarchal-imagination-the-testimony-of-two-women-equals-one-mans/

And this is ace

thefatalfeminist.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/islam-headscarves-and-men-who-need-to-see-their-way-out/

I've only got half an eye on Shameless in order to improve my knowledge - this is a significant sacrifice on my behalf, so I hope I will get credit for that at least.

yeah i said if forced they are oppressive?

i think the issue in france might have been hijab rather than niqaab in courts?

have you seen the london shariah councils website and are you aware of the work it does?

and some believe the religion does require it.

Spero, loving the fatalfeminist website. [hsmile] Did you read this article? nonconsensualsexualization. It's just so relevant for any girl growing up in any patriarchal culture.

Messy, thanks very much for link, this is why I LOVE the Internet. It is so lovely reading something so well expressed and which says what I think so much better than I could.

This had been very helpful. I have always been very uneasy about women who cover their faces, but it is sometimes hard to articulate and untangle your own thoughts - do I dislike robes because I am anti Islam? Am I a Muslim bashed? Do I simply come from a position of ignorance and privilege?

I am now confident I have fully explored my feelings and they are based on reason. This isn't an Islamic problem, it's a male problem. I think women cover up because they think this is what men want or they are scared about male reaction if they don't. And I definitely think it is oppressive.

Well, and in a fairly similar way, perhaps women wear revealing clothing because they think this is what men want or they are scared about male reaction if they don't.

Sorry if that seems a tangent, but it is a theme my colleagues and I seem to be constantly fighting with the girls and young women we work with. They seem to police each other's behaviour, attire and make up (dissing or cutting off those who aren't "doing it right,") but if you ask, they'll say they look that way because they want to and in the same breath, admit that they're afraid boys won't fancy them if they don't look right or do the right things. This just takes up SO much of their brain space it seems, when there is so much more they could be doing to stretch their horizons. (rant over.)

Kritiq, completely agree. That's why I am happy to have finally coherently ordered my thought process. I will be equally upset if my daughter comes home wearing a burkha or high heels and a basque - because I wont feel confident in either case that she is dressing in a way which is for HER rather than to please/appease those around her.

Kritiq, I agree completely. And once again those choices impact on the environment of every other woman and the regard in which she is held.

Please tell me Sharia council has no jurisdiction in law.

i dont know if it does or doesnt. all i know is that most of its work benefits women as it provides them with khula.

Khula? means the separation of the wife in return for a payment; the husband takes the payment and lets his wife go, whether this payment is the mahr which he gave to her, or more or less than that????

As the Sharia council clearly indicates it deals with religious matters only. You cannot get a divorce with them unless you have first obtained a civil divorce. They do not deal with child custody, maintenence payments as those are a matter for the civil courts, much like the Jewish Beth Din, which people seem to be far less het up about.

Spero - You are entitled to your opinion of course, certainly there may be women for whom this is the case, but you can't state that this is true for all women.

However, it's not opinions I'm concerned about, it the legislation. For me forced covering or uncovering are equally bad and the law has no place legislating women's clothing.

Anyway here are two interesting protests against the French burqa ban: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8036686/French-women-cause-a-stir-in-niqab-and-hot-pants-in-anti-burka-ban-protest.html

and on a slightly lighter note: vimeo.com/18644246

if the husband is at fault, then the wife doesnt have to pay him anything, so as you can see for women in abusive situations, these courts are very helpful.

if the women gets married to a man, demands a large mahr and then one month later decides to divorce, then she would have to pay back all or some of the mahr, if the husband wants it.

obviously most reasonable men wouldnt want to be married to a woman who doesnt want to be married to him, so these khula cases are mostly those where the man is unreasonable.

Nope Nailak, it sounds dreadful.

It is awful that any money exchanges hands in these matters.

well whatever, it may sound dreadful, but to the women in abusive marriages who this is their only way of getting away from their abusers it is not. and that is 90% of the shariah councils work. helping women in abusive situations, who dont have to pay their husband any money, as their husband is an idiot.

however they do pay money to the shariah council, which imo is a rip off, where are these women suppose to get £100 + from to pay these mens wages. and because the shariah council exists, no other imams will get involved in marriage disputes for free for fear of stepping on their toes,

and who appointed them to be our judges? they appointed themselves, are unaccountable and make their own rules, i am not supporters of them totally, but see the good they do aswell.

People can chose to be bound by decisions made in arbitration, outside the official court process, which is what the bill is about - the archbishop of Canterbury caused a stir a while back by saying he thought it would be a good idea for sharia law to be recognised in this way - I think there are already tribunals operating under Jewish religious laws for eg.

But i am very pleased that Baronness Deech has put this bill forward: sharia law clearly discriminates against women and should be given no credence in this country, particularly in areas of family law where women are already likely to be more vulnerable.

I would rather there be regulations and clear guidelines governing such organisations (whether Muslim, cultural, Jewish, whatever) rather then a "Yuck, shariah" reaction. I agree absolutely that the civil should always have the greatest authority in legal matters, most, in fact nearly all Muslims feel the same.

Baroness Cox is the same women who tried to invite the vile Geert Wilders into the country, so I'm a bit dubious of her motives.

So what are you saying Goth - freedom of speech so long as it is speech you agree with?

Why not shine a light on what Wilders is saying and debunk it, rather than given him credibility in the eyes of some by banning him?

And I am afraid that 'yuck sharia' is going to be the default reaction of many until the men who operate this system clean up their act - some of the comments of the women on the fatal feminist site, detailing what they have gone through are horrific. And the men act in this way, claiming God and right are on their side.

No, just I'd wonder exactly why you'd want to invite a one issue hate mongerer into this country: www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/10/04/mainstreaming_hate?page=0,0 Also Loonwatch have a lot on him: www.loonwatch.com/

Spero - Your rhetoric that any bad behaviour that occurs (no matter by how few) within a minority group must therefore tarnish the reputation and treatment of that group as a whole is flawed (but sadly familiar)

Some Muslim men (like any other group of people) aren't very nice. Therefore Muslims must be punished/denied rights? Is that really reasonable?

I think not.

P.S I'm already very familiar with Nahida's blog and enjoy it very much.

How bizarre that you think a council that is required to ensure women are shafted further after being purchased by allowing refunds is a good thing? How about no money and normal human rights?

Just a thought.

Are any women on these councils?

I often lurk on this forum but never post but having read this thread and the reference to the sharia council i just had to google

www.islamic-sharia.org/general/ came up so i had a read.

having read some of the utter clap trap on that site how can any woman of the islamic faith declare themselves to be a feminist?

Sharia law has no place in Britain EVER about anything

If in doubt read the part about the justification of two women's testimony.