Facebook supports rape?

[MotherPanda]

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

Viz normal man - here's a story.

a friend of mine. He knows this girl at work, fancies her, goes out with her (in group of friends) and rolls back to her place, both drunk, snogging etc. He thinks sex is on the cards she thinks not. So he stays the night, no penetrative sex, just lots of what our society calls foreplay (and sensible people call non-penetrative sex).

This happens five times in a row and he gets pissed off and doesn't want to go back sxth time, but gets drunk and does. When penetrative sex doesn't happen again, he gets up, gets his clothes, has a bit of a rant about not wnating to come over in the first place and storms out. She shouts after him: "Freak!"

I've told that story to a few people, and some of them have said: "well actually she's right, he is a bit of a freak, a normal man would have just shagged her". When I pointed out that this would be rape, they all came up with reasons why it wouldn't be really - she was a cock tease, they were drunk, she obviously wanted ti really otherwise why would she keep inviting him bakc and on this night, almost insisting on it - etc. All the reasons why, if they were on a jury, this friend of mine would almost certainly get let off if he had done what they say a "normal" man would have done and raped her. (Oh in addition, lots of witnesses over those 6 weeks, that they were rolling back drunk to her place every friday night, so they would not have believed her anyway)

So I think we need to be careful about what we assume other peopole think "normal" is. I've been by how many people have thought this friend of mine abnormal because he didn't rape a woman he had an opportunity to without any comeback. He's considered an extreme non rapist in some circles.

I am speechless at that analogy.
I'm not in this debate anymore.

Sorry not you Uppity.

Uppity, that was me with some of my boyfriends/ friends. None of them touched me or stormed out and I consider that to be normal. At least amongst my friends.

Sorry, there I go again. I really am off to bed in case the Nazi crap comes up again.

I'm really sorry if the analogy was wrong. It's just something I thought about. I don't mean to suggest one kind of evil is comparable to another, of course. I just was trying to understand how people can be brainwashed, basically.

I'm sorry, I don't see what's awful about it but as I say, if I'm wrong I'm sorry.

That's not an analogy, it's an anecdote.

And it's exactly why a lot of people didn't consider I was raped. Because I had snogged the bloke and had allowed him to sleep in the same bed as me so clearly I was inviting sex.

Oh sorry, I was confused at which post you were referring to, Rhubarb

I think the Stanford Prison Experiment is interesting in this context. Basically, when given 'permission' (like a rape culture does), ordinary people can do things which any rational discourse would find abhorrent.

I don't think you're wrong either EllaDee. I think it's a good analogy

Is there not a value, though, in trying to analyse why men don't rape, as well as why they do? I've been in plenty of 'compromising' situations with men who didn't rape me; I'm sure many of us have. Can't we ask, what are the factors that mean that some men rape and others don't? Is that not a valid and interesting question?

mooncup - yes, and I think framing it that way round is so much better than saying 'how can we recognise rapists'. It takes the perception of blame off women IMO.

This I like - a focus on the positive. Okay, who can find some research on men who choose not to rape? Are there specific attributes they share? Then work out how we instil these in the next generation of young men, and encourage adult men now to adopt those.

Kritiq - as the mother of three sons, I thought that's what I was already doing. I haven't read any research on how to do it, though, but have assumed that teaching them respect for other people is a pretty good place to start. Respect means, amongst other things, recognising a person's right to say what does and does not happen to their body. They are all disgusted by the idea of rape, and know that it is wrong (we have discussed it when it has come up in conversation, for example as a result of a news item). I have had less success when it comes to the concept that respecting other people means not thumping your brother because he won't give you the xbox remote.

But seriously - I don't think it is about 'teaching boys and men not to be rapists' - it is about teaching respect for others, and empathy, and instilling a conscience about behaviour. These, to me, are the qualities that will make the world a better place, and not only would those qualities stop someone raping or sexually assaulting another person, they would also stop them robbing them, mugging them, looting from them, defrauding them, abusing them, bullying them ........

It really hurts me to think that there might be people who'd believe that my lovely sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet - just because they are male.

I don't think anybody is saying that at all, SDTG, and what you are describing about upbringing sounds exactly the kind of approach parents should be taking.

"It really hurts me to think that there might be people who'd believe that my lovely sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet - just because they are male"

Well the best way to deal with that, is to challenge rape myths whenever you come across them. Rape myths are based on the deep seated belief, that all men are really rapists and have the right to be so, so it's up to women to stop them raping them and if they don't, then that's really their own fault because the men involved can't help themselves, what with them being potential rapists and all.

Once you get rid of the deep seated belief that men can't help themselves, you then get rid of any risk of anyone thinking your sons are rapists who just haven't had the opportunity yet. But when feminists challenge those deep seated beliefs, they're the ones who are accused of thinking all men are deep down rapists, when in fact there's no point in challenging those beliefs if that's what you think.

"Well the best way to deal with that, is to challenge rape myths whenever you come across them. Rape myths are based on the deep seated belief, that all men are really rapists and have the right to be so" isn't that what we were arguing about? That Elliott's argument could be read that rapists are no different to the ordinary man on the street? We have spent the last 2 days arguing that ordinary men are NOT all rapists and have tried, somewhat clumsily, to prove that. What you have said was the very crux of my argument.

Isn't the problem here how we are defining 'ordinary'? To me, an 'ordinary' person is one who doesn't stand out in teh crowd, who holds views and does things others would consider unsurprising. It doesn't mean 'right' or 'ideal'.

IMO rapists in our society are ordinary men. Not all rapists are ordinary, though - and those who are not, those who are caught and studied by psychologists and get into the papers, are often quite obviously not ordinary men. But the majority of rapists must be ordinary, or we would notice them, because they would stand out in the crowd.

Does that make sense?

I don't see why it's upsetting (though I see it is for some) to say that rapists are ordinary men. I don't have a problem with accepting my DH is unusual in that he doesn't consider it's ok to initiate sex when I don't want it, or to carry on when I'm not interested. I think it's really sad that this makes him unusual, but looking over this thread it is quite obvious that it does.

It's like the 'ordinary men watch porn' argument in reverse, IMO: people who want to defend porn will insist that all 'ordinary' men watch it, and that any men who say they don't are lying. Of course we all know men who don't watch porn, but society wants to normalize it so society does. Likewise with rape, society wants to pretend it's not ordinary men, so we all want to resist the idea it is.

(Btw, the 'not all ordinary men are rapists' is a false chain of logic, and that was said a lot earlier in the thread, I am sure. It's the old 'all dalmatians are dogs, it does not follow that all dogs are dalmatians' problem with reversing a chain of logic.)