Feminist approach to housework chat/support thread

[BertieBotts]

We were talking about this ages ago and it never materialised, so I decided to start one. Kind of a space for discussing how to split housework, how to get DPs/DHs/DCs doing more, how to foster a good attitude in sons, and indeed daughters. How to tell if your standards are actually your standards or some arbitrary level of "clean" you think you need to maintain in order to not be judged. Whether you can lower those standards to get away with less work. Whether you are in fact doing more than your DP without realising due to hidden "wifework" etc. Whether you have ended up with the shitty jobs while he cherry picks the nicer ones, and how to change this. Shortcuts are encouraged - you're no more of a woman by cleaning the entire house with one lemon and an old toothbrush than by using an expensive but effective cleaning product. And any possible other thing you can think of, but with a feminist slant.

The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time. It might require a shift in your thinking/vocabulary. Your husband and children, if you have them, don't "help" with the housework, they have their own share. If you are doing their share, or even part of it, you are in fact the one who is helping them, so get that recognised and appreciated. And of course support/moaning room here too (and no assumptions that you have a partner or your partner is male - just mentioned a lot because of the bias a lot of other threads have towards "Men are just wired differently and can't see dirt, lol, what are they like!")

Anyone in? :)

I could probably cope with a sticky kitchen floor to make a point - letting the loo roll run out, or even the toothpaste ... definitely past my limits!

LRD did you tell your DP you were stopping doing things, and why, or are you letting him work it out for himself? How is it affecting your relationship?

I didn't tell him 'from now on I will only do the things you used to do regularly' - but mainly because I hadn't quite got my mind round it myself. I just stopped, then rationalized. But we have talked about this a lot, and he's started reading Wifework - he knows what's going on.

I think we're both realizing a lot of things. I'm realizing how much I just do without thinking and assumed he did too, and how much time I was spending planning or remembering to do things. And, well, he's realizing all sorts of things get messy much faster than he knew! He's trying really hard atm (because of the novelty partly, I think) to do things.

The other thing is I am quite down at the moment because the mess depresses me. He seems ok but a bit nervous, because he can see I'm fed up but can't work out quite what the problem is, I think. I mean, he knows in theory but can't work out what to do - practically - to help, because he thinks there are only a few jobs that ever need doing.

We'll see how it goes. I feel very cynical writing this and very, very passive-aggressive, but I'm really struck by people saying that when they have children they are much less able to let things go hang. So, I suspect it''s now or not at all.

just seen this! sorry - it was me who suggested it and said i'd set it up and then never did - think i lacked confidence that anyone wanted it and then forgot about it. i don't have the dh/dp element to it so the division of labour not an issue for me but i did still feel i'd rather talk to feminists about issues around housework/organisation/finding a good line between chaos and anal etc.

will try and read and catch up later hope i won't be too out of place not having a dh/dp in the mix.

Very interesting thread - thanks. DH and I both work outside the home (him FT, me PT). He is very good though and has definitely bought into Sold Gold's theory that what matters is that people have the same amount of time off. He tends to work pretty long hours so gets in at 7.30/ 8 and will help put the children to bed, have dinner, pack the dishwasher etc. He does equal childcare at weekends and gets them to help him push the hoover around. The children know that they have to help. Whether they do or not is another matter and largely mood dependant but at 2 and 4 I think that is okay.

My big bugbear is my parents! They live with us and have a granny annexe but they use the main kitchen and often eat with me and the children as it is much nicer and more friendly than their kitchenette thing. My dad will not clear up after himself at all. I suspect he deliberately makes a mess - e.g. he is the only person who has sugar in drinks. I will go into the kitchen and find sugar scattered all over the worktop next to the kettle and then hot tea slopped on it so it goes sticky. If I mention it and ask him to clear it up, he sulks.

It is cleaned up by one of the other adults in the house, but it really annoys me. He is the only retired person, he has plenty of time, plenty of money and very few expectations on him so I find it deeply disrespectful to make extra work for other people who work FT and/or have small children to look after. It seems to be some sort of status thing for him and it drives me nuts.

azazello oh that would have me grinding my teeth in frustration! Does your DM live with you too (What a lovely arrangement, btw!) - can you get her 'on side' or at least discuss it with her? It is bloody rude of him, and a real privilege moment, as you say.

Mum lives with us too and is fully aware of what a pita he can be! She doesn't really see it in feminist terms - she still sort of thinks it is her role to run around after him despite working full time in a professional job.

The pros very much outweigh the cons (especially for the children) but it is a relief when dad is away. Luckily he has a hobby which takes up most weekends and several solid weeks in the summer - funnily enough, when he is staying in his caravan looking after himself, it is immaculate.

it really stands out in those circumstances doesn't it? 3 out of 4 adults pulling their weight working outside the home and doing work in it as part of a team and one just breezing through making a mess and not seeing it as his concern

no good talking to your mother i'm guessing because that will just make more work for her as she'll feel bound to clear up after him.

do you think you could sit and have a 'adult' talk with him - like dad we're all working and we all take our share in clearing up the house and tidy up after ourselves out of consideration to each other as we don't want to make extra work for each other. could you not do the same please? i wouldn't mention that he himself didn't work as that could get him defensive but he knows that anyway and it should sink in. or do you have to tiptoe around him and not say anything that might offend him? (creating an atmosphere like that around yourself is a great way to be able to do exactly as you please and no one dare call you on it)

i suspect i need to start pushing ds to do more. he's come home from school twice this week with stars for being such a good helper and clearer upper whilst my living room looks like a dinosaur bomb has gone off. he's only 4.5 and i think old enough for his own little chore if i could think of one that didn't mean making more work for myself essentially. tidying up is easy said but i'm not sure chucking stuff in boxes really is a chore and i'm thinking it should be something for the house in general rather than just for himself. think i'm going to start him on cleaning the low cupboard doors in the kitchen - he loves spray bottles so should see it as fun initially - he could do it once a week (which is more than i do it but hey maybe he can take more pride in clean cupboards than i do)

SAF, how about hanging out washing and then sorting socks into pairs and things like underwear that don't matter how they are folded into piles for delivery to the relevant bedrooms? We had a short step-ledder to put near the washing line so that things could be hung up by little ones before they got tall enough.

i so don't see him being able to do that. i don't think he'd have the dexterity to hang out washing, get it straight and get the pegs on iyswim. the sorting underwear into piles and socks into pairs is a good one though, thanks.

Yes, it takes some practice. Pegging socks is a good one to start with. Also if you make dens where the door has two bits that need to be pegged together, they get pegging/unpegging practice!

god you're good! and i suspect a hell of a lot more patient than me i think i'm going to start with the sorting socks and pants and putting his own away as a way into getting him involved in the laundry.

it would be bloody nice to be able to get to a stage where someone other than me could take a useful role in the laundry (my least favourite domestic task because it is so relentless and whereas everything else you can let slide you feel the consequences of nothing to wear quite quickly).

thank you - think you've inspired me to aim my sights higher even if it takes step by step stuff to get there

Had a big family meeting yesterday. I said more or less this: 'This meeting is about the housework. First, I want to say thankyou DC for getting so much better at helping out when you're asked and thankyou DP for doing a few extra jobs lately. HOWEVER we are now four adults sharing this house and we need to move past you all 'helping' me. You need to be taking responsibility for your fair share. If this is not sorted out, I won't be taking on any more hours at work because last time I was full time I still got lumbered with all the housework and it was miserable for everybody. If I don't take on the hours, we're going to have to tighten our belts because times are hard.'

We then went round the house, room by room, and discussed what we should all be doing anyway - hanging towels up, taking cups and plates to the kitchen, wiping up spills etc. and what should be included in a weekly clean. Then we talked about the jobs that need doing every day to keep the house running smoothly - washing up, cooking and laundry. I pointed out all the extra work involved that was being left to me - e.g washing up but not wiping surfaces, cooking but not planning the meal or checking ingredients.

We now have rotas!

We have one for the weekly cleaning - one room each per week - and we have one for daily chores - washing up, laundry and cooking - 21 'slots' altogether. Everybody chooses 5 slots on a first-come-first-served basis (I'm doing the extra slot this week but it'll be rotated) and if somebody can't do one of the slots that is left, it's up to them to negotiate a swap with someone. We also have checklists so they can't 'forget' to do all the extras involved in each job.

Of course it's me who's devised the rotas and checklists and I'm aware that it's more sodding wifework to do that, but once it's all written down I can in theory forget about it and just do my share.

I don't think DP has quite 'got' the organisation side yet. There's space on the rota to write down what you're cooking and a box to tick to say you've checked ingredients and added what we haven't got to the shopping list. The DC have handled this fine. DP has put down pasta bake, even though DD had already put down exactly the same for the night after. He hasn't put down any ingredients because he says he'll make it with 'whatever's left in the fridge.' Aaarrgghh!

make sure you point out to him that he has to check that 'what's left in the fridge' hasn't already been earmarked by someone for their meals that they've planned. the next night will be fucked up if he uses what someone else plans to use (and has said so if he bothers to check) the next night.

well done though for getting everyone mostly onside and ready to grow up and do their share

Well exactly, SaF - the whole point of meal planning is that we have the stuff in the fridge for the meals we are having, so we don't run out of stuff or buy more than we need.

SAF, thanks but it's don't get too rosy a picture of life here. Both DCs have mastered pegging out the washing (8 and 6) but unfortunately DD tends to do more of this because she like me to play with her so will voluntarily help with stuff to free up my time. Whereas if I say to DS that I'm too busy to do xyz with him, he'll usually just find something else to do.

The good thing is that now they have both mastered it, they are the ones to tell DH when he gets a bit lazy and doesn't do it properly, thus humiliating him into making more of an effort.

It's funny how we all have different tastes wrt household jobs. I actually don't mind the doing the laundry. Whenever I feel I should do something useful, I'll check the dirty laundry basket first.

Plentyofpubegardens, interesting about your meeting. Will bear it in mind as DCs grow older. I suppose ideally those of us with younger children need to aim to avoid the situation of needing a meeting. Not having read the wife-work book, I'm not really in a position to judge but it strikes me that every team needs an organiser. I was that person in student accommodation one year, but not when the following year with different house-mates. What you did wrt the rota is not necessarily because you are someone's wife iyswim.

Meant to add that in student accommodation, both those years I was in an entirely female flat.

somewhereelse - yes, I agree if you can get them doing their bit from a young age things will be easier later on. My DC were actually pretty good at chores when they were younger. I think things started to go south a bit in their early teens when they started organising their own social lives - they'd frequently 'forget' and go straight to a mate's house after school. However good they are at helping though, it's a bit of a mind-shift to taking responsibility and a bit of a pep talk is not a bad idea. My DC need to know that if they put themselves down for a job on the rota they have committed to doing it, and doing it properly, first time, with no reminders. If they don't, the whole household knows who to be pissed off with, which is great because it used to be me people got pissed off with even if I had nagged asked somebody else to do something.

I agree that teams need leaders and I'm actually happy to do that as long as it's respected and appreciated. I think I'm quite good at it and would like to be allowed to take a bit of pride in the role. I've been a bit disconcerted over the last couple of days that both DP and DS have come up to me and started conversations with 'you know those rotas? What you should do is ...' and started to explain some really complicated system they had in their heads and I was thinking, 'Fuck off! If anybody deserves the management job it's me!'

Didn't say anything though

PlentyofPubeGardens - your system sounds ace.
I am GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRing a bit at "Whatever is left in the fridge" though. It reeks of "things turn up in the fridge because the fridge fairies put them there". Or maybe he has sourced a very special recipe for pasta bake made with capers, a scrape of ancient mayonnaise and half a tub of Thai curry paste?

Oops I forgot about this thread

Whatever-is-left-in-the-fridge bake Oh well. Local shops normally sell an onion, a pack of bacon, some cheese and a jar of sauce at the very least.