Feminist approach to housework chat/support thread

[BertieBotts]

We were talking about this ages ago and it never materialised, so I decided to start one. Kind of a space for discussing how to split housework, how to get DPs/DHs/DCs doing more, how to foster a good attitude in sons, and indeed daughters. How to tell if your standards are actually your standards or some arbitrary level of "clean" you think you need to maintain in order to not be judged. Whether you can lower those standards to get away with less work. Whether you are in fact doing more than your DP without realising due to hidden "wifework" etc. Whether you have ended up with the shitty jobs while he cherry picks the nicer ones, and how to change this. Shortcuts are encouraged - you're no more of a woman by cleaning the entire house with one lemon and an old toothbrush than by using an expensive but effective cleaning product. And any possible other thing you can think of, but with a feminist slant.

The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time. It might require a shift in your thinking/vocabulary. Your husband and children, if you have them, don't "help" with the housework, they have their own share. If you are doing their share, or even part of it, you are in fact the one who is helping them, so get that recognised and appreciated. And of course support/moaning room here too (and no assumptions that you have a partner or your partner is male - just mentioned a lot because of the bias a lot of other threads have towards "Men are just wired differently and can't see dirt, lol, what are they like!")

Anyone in? :)

I agree that the lowering standards argument is a bit .

It often seems very manipulative.

It's entitled behaviour isn't it.

Actually I've had a bit of a lightbulb moment about it - if you're in a position where your DP pulls rank on the nighttime childcare because his role in the family is more important than your's and therefore gives him an opt-out on all the difficult stuff, then you are going to want to raise your rank in the family so that you can level the playing field a bit; if rank is determined by how much work you're doing outside the home, then you're going to want to ensure that you do more work outside than inside the home, because then you'll be able to demand that your DP do his fair share instead of meekly accepting that he has an opt out.

It's really important that we keep working on ensuring that decent men and women don't assume that opt-out.

Was addressing Lenin's point there btw

I don't view being a stay at home parent as being the servant of the one who goes out to work.

Everyone who lives in the house should contribute to the running of house in equal measures within reason (ie there may be things that can more easily be done by the person who is at home all day, such as shopping (which I do online, can't be arsed with the daily trips to the supermarket that MIL seems to find essential- stock up and make do is my motto)).

The problem I find as someone working from home is that I have to be quite firm -especially with my children who seem to think that I am some kind of taxi firm- about attempts to encroach into my working day. It's not always plain sailing and my oldest daughter in particular can be really quite rude to me at times.

I end up being quite cussed about a lot of things, even if I am not all that busy with work ( I work on average 10-14 days a month) just to remind that I am not always on call for them. Of course I could do 97% of the cleaning and other mundane household chores, I just don't see why I ought to- I don't generate 97% of it, and they all old enough to do their share.

I think that the odd mother (never seen a father proclaim that the children should do nothing) on MN who feels that her children should do nothing at home at all may be suffering from self-esteem issues or may have their own particular reasons for handling their family life in this way.

This post is about household standards, not the whole parenting & sharing thing. While I agree that it's better for partners to consider each other's level of tolerance, it's interesting that these threads always involve an assumption that women's standards of cleanliness, etc, are higher than men's. Or should be. There's always a "women want a nice home" current of opinion.

I regularly challenge this (mostly unsuccessfully.) It's bonkers and sexist to assume that "women" generically have different likes and dislikes from "men". My idea is that this assumption is purely a reflection of social conditioning; one of those things we don't even question until we have to.

My own standards have plummeted since becoming ill. I haven't got the energy to do even basic housework, so barely do any. Living with dirt bothers me far, far less than I expected - I've never been manic about cleaning, but had taken for granted that I like a clean & orderly home. Turns out I don't actually care.

I would, if I could afford it, have a cleaner. But, if I'm honest with myself, that would only be for the benefit of my inner nag. If I was really bothered, I'd be doing without something else to pay for it wouldn't I?

When couples bicker about domestic work, I often suggest just dropping it for a while, to see how things turn out. People invariably claim they "couldn't" - and it's almost always the woman who says it.

I'm just suggesting that, perhaps, standards have been internalised which are not really necessary. You can't really find out your own crap-comfort level until you've tried doing without those standards ...

I want to write something else about men expecting very high domestic standards, especially when they expect their wife to achieve them, but that's another strand of the same thread I guess.

Can I clarify about the standards thing - it was something which was discussed at length on the other thread, as a few people said that they would clean up frantically if they had people coming over, whereas the rest of the time, they were happy living in a clean and tidy home, but less than that "perfect" state, which is after all difficult to maintain constantly. And then it was discussed whether this artificial level of cleanliness observed as a visitor created more subconscious pressure to keep the house cleaner or tidier than your own personal level. And how it was nearly always women who worried about this. So the intention of the lowering standards comment (as I meant it, anyway) was to find your own personal standards within your family and try to keep it at that level, and don't worry about tidying up extra if you have visitors, because if the house is at a level that you find acceptable, it should be acceptable to anyone else. Garlicnutty has just touched on this too - standards being internalised which aren't really necessary. It wasn't about just learning to live with the mess if your partner can't be bothered.

The other thing that was mentioned was giving ourselves (as women) "permission" to do half a job. I'm rubbish at explaining this but that part of the discussion starts here. (Should have just done that for the standards thing too - but IIRC it follows on anyway)

Agree as well garlicnutty. My standards have been lower than every boyfriend I've ever had, except one, and he was a (borderline?) alcoholic who slept on a sofabed mattress in the middle of his bedroom floor because his bed was always covered in random crap. I remember I was there once and he slipped onto a pint glass, breaking it and cutting his arm open. He went to his mum in the kitchen and she stuck it together with about six plasters I'm amazed it never got infected!

I also do the "I don't see dirt" thing. I genuinely don't. It's quite bad. I can tell when the room is untidy and I can tell when it's clean but I never notice the in between.

havent read all thread yet but will do when i've had more sleep.

i'm really struggling with this housework thing at the moment. notjust physicaly but in my head. this post may be a load of nonsense because i am tired but i'll try my bes to get out what i m trying to say.

i'm a single female parent to two boys. (apart from 1 couple that have no children nd both work FT) i dont know any families where there is a even (or thereabouts) split of domesic work, in everyfamilyi know it is weighted heavily on the woman's side. also i dont know any families where this isn't a problem or source of tension at least to the woman. i also know a few other female single parents with older children that do everything in the house and dislike the fact that they do everything. so for me, it is very normal that women do the majority of housework, it is also normal that they dislike this arrangement but that they tolerate/accept/enable this arrangement.

i do not want this to be normal for my children. i do not want them growing up thinking that as men, they will have a woman for that sort of stuff

BUT my current situation means that they DO have a woman for all that housework business. i encourage them to be as self serving as possible according to their abilities. they areboth capable of makingtheir beds, takingtheir washingdownand putting itin the machine, setting the table, clearing the table. andthey bothdo these things with remonders fromme. but there is no escapingthe fact that overall, mum (female) is responsible for everything. their dad i not present at all apart from a visit every 8 weeks or so. and on these visits (roughly 6 hours long) he takesthem to his own mothers where she makes their meals, changes nappies,washe faces etc. their basic blueprint of life places a woman in the role of cook, cleaner, costume maker, furniture buyer, homeworksuperviser, lift runner, money handler, grocery buyer etc. they have no examples in their lives of a man doing any of these things. and i am not about to bringa man into my life solely for thsi purpose.

so how do i get aroun this? as i said i encourage them as much as possibleto tid up afetr thmselves and be responsible for their own things but when all around them is this same story of resentful women running after men how cani makesure the dnt accept that as 'life'

sorry for awful spelling. silly laptop wont behave.

I think Bertie is right in saying that you have to start children young and ingrain the idea that you clear up after yourself. I get DS (1) to "help" me clear his toys up (basically chuck em all into the ikea storage bucket things) before bed as part of the bedtime routine. It's a bit hit and miss and would definitely be quicker to do myself, but I think it's important.

I'm of the opinion that formal housework (i.e. the deep cleaning- hoovering, floor mopping, deep clean kitchen/bathroom) can be done quickly and painlessly if everyone in the house just tidies/cleans up after themselves. What pisses me off is when you have people in the house who assume the magic HW fairy will put pants into laundry baskets and wipe toothpaste/shaving foam off the sink.

Re: "lowering standards" and expectations - when you move in with someone, you surely have some idea of what they are like?

When I moved in with DH, I actually gave him a little speech about how he knew I was not a domestic goddess, and how I was not about to become one at any time in the future. This was in the aftermath of my worst hoarding episodes, so he knew I meant it. It felt really unromantic, and a couple of my friends thought I was insane, but it did the intended job.

I suppose there are different degrees of this though, as always. It's probably fair to say that if you move in with a congenitally untidy man, it is futile to try and change him, but then again, there are men who are perfectly competent around the home until the arrival of a woman on the scene.

Just thinking out loud here.

Stewie - I haven't read wifework but since reading a few posts on here I feel like I really ought to!

Catina - Thanks so much for the post, I immediately had an eye opening moment when I realised you were right and for months I'd been trying to work out why I felt so guilty and angry. As soon as I'd finished reading DH and I had a cup of tea and I told him I am not doing it anymore, I am here to look after DD and I will clear up after us in the daytime but when it comes to everything else he is not pulling his weight. He agreed. I told him it's not acceptable and it's making me ill and making me dislike him quite a lot and so for the sake of our family he either needs to do more or pay someone to do his share....I'm calling my mum's cleaner today!!!!!! Something also seems to have switched in his brain as he is being infinitely more understanding and even passed on what I said to one of his friends who has an equally frazzled partner.

I know hiring a cleaner isn't exactly making him do more work around the house but I'm willing to accept this as I don't bloody have to do it I will get more time for DD and me.

FYI - he doesn't work 40+ hours a week, he probably does about 30 including travelling time and some days he just stays in the house working.

Oh just quickly also - when I met DH he was tidy, in fact he was much more domesticated than I was which is why it has been even more frustrating! I used to be the kind of person who's last interest was housework and now it's the first thing I have to think of when I wake up in the morning...not for much longer I hope.

mummy2munchkin it is interestingto hear you say housework is thefirst thing you think of when you wake up in the morning. i am the same. house work weighs constantly on my mind, i always feel i am not doing enough (i am not, just no motivation at all to get it done) and so i plan my days around what i intend to get done housework wise. i go to bed thinking of what i have to do in the morning ad i ake up groaniingbecase i know once i have donethe school run it is back to do the dishes, washing, and start cleaning. i know i am to blame for it never actually gettingdone but i wonder how many men are waking up thinking of puttingon the washing and heatingup the water to wash dishes.i know when i lived with my EXP hi first thoughts were getting to the gym before heaing off to see whatever friend he 'had' to see that day, he was forces and had leave period of 2-8 weeks so week after week of being at home, yet not once did he clean the bathroom, make a bed, fold washing, cleanthe oven etc. yetthese things were consantly stressngme.tehy sill are.i constatly feel guiltyabout what i am not getting done.

Been thinking about what you said, Bertie: "I don't see dirt". I can tell when the room is untidy and I can tell when it's clean but I never notice the in between.

Wouldn't this be the rational & natural way to be? Housework is a thankless task because it's never complete. As soon as it's done, it starts getting undone. Anxious housekeepers are always trying to return it to the 'done' state, which basically means eradicating traces of the life that takes place at home. If you forget about it until you "see" it's too dirty, you're as close as possible to making a completed job out of it.

I didn't word that last sentence right, but hope you get what I meant ...

Well M2M I am glad you had that conversation with him. It's great you have the option of a cleaner; but I would reiterate you insistence that he share the day to day chores and doesn't use said cleaner as an excuse everytime there is a pile of washing/washing-up to be done.
The getting ill is actually someting that happened to my mother. It took her being bedbound for a considerable period for thong to change with my Dad.
Good luck.

Blimey that took some time to read! 4 hours actually, including the inevitable interruptions from DD, and having to get a bit of housework done sporadically, to ease the guilt of sitting here "doing nothing".

DH is a lazy git bit slack when it comes to pulling his weight around the house, although he is getting better (thanks to the good advice I was given on here. :)) He WOH more than I do, so I feel in our case it's fairer if I do do a bit more than him, but when he was doing nothing at all, he was really taking the piss. Now, he does a few set jobs each week, some chosen by him, some by me. Every night he asks what he needs to do, and will do any job given without complaint. He also creates less mess after I went on strike and he had to clean up after himself.

However, somedays I still hugely resent the weight of responsibilty that's left on me. All of the organisation falls to me, from remembering which toilet needs cleaning, to filling out/returning paperwork. For him to do his share I still have to remind him, and tell him what needs doing. I'm just hoping that if I keep at it, then doing a bit each day will become habit for him, and I can pass responsibilty to him and finally stop having to nag!

Just found this thread - looks really useful. I'll be back later when I've had time to read.

M2M I'd suggest that you get the cleaner to do your share of the housework as well.

But I'm an unreasonable old bag and went to bed late last night so am looking at the whole question with a very jaundiced eye.

"A better game to play is "you've got it so much harder than I"."

totally agree - a sympathetic "sorry you've had a bad day" is soooooo much more likely to result in a shag home-cooked meal than "what the hell have you done all day?"

i think my H and i have finally started to get the balance right (12 years married); he has jobs that i point-blank refuse to do (ironing, taking out bins and cutting the grass) while the only job he never does is clean the bathroom and we juggle the rest. he took the kids to school/nursery this morning before starting work because i didn't finish work till 1am last night, even though it would have suited him better to head off at 8am.

we don't have much discrepancy in terms of "seeing dirt" except when we have guests coming, but we have a massive discrepancy in terms of "seeing chaos" - he would happily live with crap piled up everywhere... i have to admit that my kids are pretty rubbish at tidying, but i can't claim too much horror since i have never been particularly tidy (as a teenager you literally couldn't see an inch of carpet in my room - i used to regularly crack CDs/records cause i didn't realise they were under the clothes i was stepping on).

I've been thinking a lot about the management aspects of wifework and how I feel about them.

When DP and I got together, I'd been a LP for a few years and DP moved in with us - into my very well-managed setup, in other words, him having had no experience of life with young kids before. Because of that, I think it's been very hard for him to take on responsibility for stuff - I've been 'gatekeeping' not because I think he's crap but just because I was already managing everything fine and just continued the habit, even when we moved into our own place. It has always felt like I'm the one in charge and have delegated jobs to him and, as time passed, to the DC too. He was responsible for financial stuff for about two months until we missed a mortgage payment, he didn't want to tell me and instead had a panic attack so bad he ended up in A&E. Turns out budgeting is one thing he really is crap at, so I took that on too.

The DC are now 16 and 19 so really we're a household of four adults now and while DP and the DC will do things when I ask, the overall management of everything still falls to me and I feel quite ambivalent about it.

On the one hand, I think it's something I'm good at and I should be able to feel proud of that - I do think the household runs better if somebody takes proper charge of finances, what needs doing when, calendars and diaries etc. (although it probably doesn't need to be one person - i.e. me - who takes charge of all these areas) On the other hand, I don't really feel appreciated or respected for what I do. I think I'd be happy to do it if that appreciation and respect was there. Does that sound reasonable or am I a 'control-freak'?

The management aspect is a pain in the rear. Also it makes it your fault when something isn't done. It also means you have to carry the worry. For example DD1 has health problems, one of which is asthma - it is always me who takes her to the allergist and therefore, by default, I am in charge of her medicine and sorting out her medical file with the school. I think I worry about the whole thing more than DH and also feel responsible when the medicine isn't doing its job and she is unwell. Sorry, slight tangent!

I am about to go away for a week for work and the organisational logistics of 'covering' me seem to be enormous (I mostly work from home so am flexible for the children). We seem to need a whole team of people to replace me, and that is only to have the basic kids looked after bit done.

I am trying not to be involved in this process - I will be away for the whole week, DH will be sole carer of children during that week, so it is HIM who needs to be replaced when he is at work, NOT ME.

DH gets this, but my MIL and a friend who is helping, want to organise things through me. I can't count the number of times I have said to MIL 'I'll be out the country on that day, you better see with your son what time he plans on getting home from work'.

plenty - no, you do not sound like a control freak. Honestly ... if four adults can't keep a house clean, that'd be absurd. So the big job, if you like, is still the organizing. Which falls to you. D'you think they'd start noticing if the loo roll/toothpaste ran out, or would the response just be a puzzled 'we've run out of loo roll mum!' (subtext: go buy more)?

(cynic, me? Never!)

That is really interesting what you say about the cleaner, deep.

I am still carrying on my little experiment of not doing anything DH doesn't do regularly (so, basically, I'm washing up and closing the fridge door, so far). He's been citing the 'different standards' thing and I thought possibly the only way to find out if that was really true was to live it. So far, he has finally worked out that putting wet towls in the washing machine and leaving them to fester doesn't result in clean towls. He's started wiping worktops (just as regularly as I used to do it, interestingly - no, ok, it's not interesting at all, I know! - he used to say eh just didn't notice as much as me, but on this issue he obviously does). But the kitchen floor is quite sticky now.

I don't know how long I do this - I keep finding more things that he just doesn't do, that either he's sworn blind he did, or I just assumed any sane adult did as a matter of course. But I do think it's fair on him to give him time to see what the problem is, not just listen to me telling him my side.

Yes, I loved that bit!

I suppose the thing is, we do this stuff without really thinking about it. You'd never say, 'now, DH, I am about to wash the towel or else it will dry smelling of chlorine and god-knows-what'. It's just something obvious.

But then, I grew up in a pretty filthy house and it was a revelation when I realized other people didn't try to clean sinks by wetting a face flanel and wiping at them with handsoap - you could actually just put stuff on the taps that reacts with limescale, leave it, come back, and it's gone. I honestly had no idea. So I suppose you have to learn somewhere.