Feminist approach to housework chat/support thread

[BertieBotts]

We were talking about this ages ago and it never materialised, so I decided to start one. Kind of a space for discussing how to split housework, how to get DPs/DHs/DCs doing more, how to foster a good attitude in sons, and indeed daughters. How to tell if your standards are actually your standards or some arbitrary level of "clean" you think you need to maintain in order to not be judged. Whether you can lower those standards to get away with less work. Whether you are in fact doing more than your DP without realising due to hidden "wifework" etc. Whether you have ended up with the shitty jobs while he cherry picks the nicer ones, and how to change this. Shortcuts are encouraged - you're no more of a woman by cleaning the entire house with one lemon and an old toothbrush than by using an expensive but effective cleaning product. And any possible other thing you can think of, but with a feminist slant.

The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time. It might require a shift in your thinking/vocabulary. Your husband and children, if you have them, don't "help" with the housework, they have their own share. If you are doing their share, or even part of it, you are in fact the one who is helping them, so get that recognised and appreciated. And of course support/moaning room here too (and no assumptions that you have a partner or your partner is male - just mentioned a lot because of the bias a lot of other threads have towards "Men are just wired differently and can't see dirt, lol, what are they like!")

Anyone in? :)

Sure it does. And your bitchy nitpicking and attempt to derail a thread you have no interest in makes you look swell.

Isn't there a thread somewhere you can go and rant about how people don't "own names"?

derail,bitchy nit picking shrewish fool

kerching! i guessed derail would come up obviously.its fem topic default for dont dare disagree with me.the put down of choice round these parts

do remind me again why fem topics are regularly cited by posters as unpleasant and cliquey, name-calling. oh and why mnhq doesnt wish to moderate it differently

The assumption bit was supposed to differentiate between a thread in which open discussion/debate of the main issue is intended, and one which is operating from a specific premise. Sorry if the wording offended you. But since you clearly don't agree with the premise, why not go and argue the point on one of the million threads which pop up a week which are actually debates or AIBUs about the split of housework. Or perhaps you could go and tell someone who's just started a breastfeeding thread that they should be doing more tidying, since they're clearly on maternity leave and have nothing better to do. That's about as related as posting here is, anyway.

Of course you can post what you want, and comment what you want, but there are lots of debate threads. Since I'm not personally interested in a debate I'm not going to get massively involved in any further posts which are trying to turn the thread into one. If others want to then fair enough.

Apologies to others for slight derailment - I'm reading and will post tomorrow when I can think straight and am not about to fall asleep.

Catita I remembered the other thread title - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1270302-Feminism-and-housework-and-hoarding-and-Flylady

I have no idea, I don't usually post here.

I just think you're being a dick.

But if you want to imagine it's some big conspiracy to stop you spouting your usual asinine drivel, go ahead.

Haha, x-posted on use of "derail" - sorry, how is it not derailing? Trying to make it into a debate rather than chat/support as stated in the title is derailing, is it not?

Oh well. I'm going to bed.

Some Scotts do drink a lot.

bertie as you correctly note,i disagreed with your premise
note it was your premise,your op.so why on earth if challenging that specific op and premise would i then go to a completely different thread?

you post, you invited discussion
you got it
obviously you dont like how its gone.but face it in responding to your op your premise,my dialogue is with this thread not popping up on a random unrelated thread.because you dont wish to discuss a challenge with me

never mind we have fast forwarded to name calling
derailer
shrewish fool
bitchy nit picking
...you disputing temerity of a challenge

so in actual fact yes your fem thread looks much any other aibu

But you were derailing, SM... You came in, and automatically started spouting about how Bertie shouldn't have used a phrase, she was dictating to women, yada yada...

All of this from a known misogynist...

Anyway, I can't be arse with verbal fisticuffs tonight, so I'll leave it there. If you continue, it's up to you. But you'll be talking to yourself.

kerchingis you drunk.drunkard insinuation
lol,you couldnt make this up

a few days ago was discussing fem threads when no likey content revert to default name-calling to deflect...
derailer- Tick
is you drunk - tick
and people said no,no thats not so

just need a wee troll or what about da menz

Well I welcomed the OP- it's interesting and useful to have a different and feminist perspective (in the Feminism Section, goodness!) on who is responsible for what, and what our usual assumptions imply.

It seems entirely reasonable to me that if the person at home (usually the woman) is in charge of childcare, then if they do the bulk of the housework too, they should be credited for it and appreciated for taking up other people's slack, not have it assumed they have become a skivvy, and it is all their 'job'- it isn't.

kerching misognist
its topofthepoptastc with cliche tonight

the default position of some here is to name call. try deflect by apportioning a name to someone else. it is getting v predictable

other posters on other mn topics dont revert to default derailer etc when disagreed with,they usially engage and take on comments

of course if at home all day do the housework,esp if someone else out working. if one person is out 37+hr week plus travel then yes the unwaged at home does domestic stuff,childcare,meals. even more so once kids at school and no direct childcare from 9-3

And what does that extend to, scottishmummy? A personal maid service? Picking up shitty underpants from the bathroom floor? Or tidying up after the working person made toast at 10pm for themselves because they work all day?

It seems entirely obvious to me that if DH stopped working to look after our children that I would still be able to do the same amount of housework I do now that we both work full time.

I really wonder what would have to happen to me to think that just because someone else was at home rather than at work, that suddenly I would become incapable of doing what I have been doing for years.

And I'm a right lazy cow. It wouldn't take much for me to give up the joys of housework. But it wouldn't seem fair really, to think that just because someone was doing all the childcare that that meant they had to do all the housework too.

if someone out working to keep an unwaged housewife at home.yes they do clean.watch,kids,domestic chores.thats no particular hardship.ceratinly should match the same hours as the wage earner.so if they ate out 8-6 an equitable match is at least do exactly same hours. and then split tasks.but cannot expewt someone else do 37+hrs and not match at least

and its not a ft job.its dong your own thing,at own pace in own home. with no other adult boss telling you what to do,or targets or a sudden urgent email about the laundry arrives for example

Scott - please could you pop capitals in after full-stops, cheers.

So can you count hours up at night with a baby or disabled child then, scottishmummy? On anti-social hours rates, perhaps? Any equivalent consideration for being "on-call" to children feeling sick or having bad dreams? Do you run a timesheet?

Perhaps I should remind myself that I'm on my own time and pace when I've got pneumonia and my youngest needs their nappy changing? I can get round to it when it suits, surely?

if youre not up in morninng going to go to work.baby at night is responsibility of unwaged parent. the repercussions of a housewife being tired at home are markedly different from a wage earner being tired and distracted at work.housewife can take it easy next day,slow down.doesn't work after all so its not as significant

if both work,then you share it

HAHAHAAHA!

"Housewife can take it easy the next day"

You've obviously got some pretty easy going DC...

And in that case, if you're a waged, single parent, does that mean you don't need to take responsibility for the DC, seeing as you're working the next day?

That's interesting. I would argue that it's at LEAST as important for a SAHM to be alert to dangers etc around a baby, or be responsive and encouraging in tone rather than snappy or even neglectful. You'd expect that much from a nursery worker, surely?

I am a SAHM and (for once) agree with SM that the SAHP should do more of the housework than the P who works FT, whatever their gender. However, the caveat is that it depends how many pre-schoolers you've got at one time

• One NT pre-schooler or Kids at school. SAHP shd be able to get all of it done within the hours of a FT OH job.
• Two NT PS- I'd say at least a 70/30 split

-Three- can't imagine anything worse but then I doubt you'd get much done at all.

Also, I think "clearing up after yourself" can still be expected of everyone, whatever the working circumstances- i.e. washing only gets washed if it's in the laundry basket, everyone puts own stuff in dishwasher, hanging towels up, not leaving the toilet dirty, wiping kitchen surface after making self a sandwich etc.

When I talk about "housework" I mean laundry, hoovering, cleaning etc

nursery worker is waged doing job to a standard that is monitor and inspected, and employing company has expectation of paperwork etc

housewife at home,own pace,no paperwork etc

cannot compare unwaged housewife to employed nursery worker

nursery worker usually has nvq,or an hnc
housewife doesnt need any prerequisite experience to watch own child

Also, nursery worker has tougher ratios- isn't it 1:3 for under 1's? Not many SAHMs have 3 kids under 1 at the same time.

Scottishmummy, it's not so much that I disagree with your premise that the full SAHP should do the majority of the housework, because if I worked full-time I would probably expect my DP to be largely responsible for the running of the home. So it's not that....

It's just that you came on this thread with a very aggressive manner. If you don't like the way the OP has phrased the opening post then that is fine, express yourself, but there are surely less antagonistic ways to do so. The OP wasn't being rude or aggressive herself yet you turned it into an argument.

The names that you were called enabled you cry "unfair" and label the feminist section as "unpleasant" yet if you look at your posts you will surely see that it was you that had turned the thread into something "unpleasant".