Feminist approach to housework chat/support thread

[BertieBotts]

We were talking about this ages ago and it never materialised, so I decided to start one. Kind of a space for discussing how to split housework, how to get DPs/DHs/DCs doing more, how to foster a good attitude in sons, and indeed daughters. How to tell if your standards are actually your standards or some arbitrary level of "clean" you think you need to maintain in order to not be judged. Whether you can lower those standards to get away with less work. Whether you are in fact doing more than your DP without realising due to hidden "wifework" etc. Whether you have ended up with the shitty jobs while he cherry picks the nicer ones, and how to change this. Shortcuts are encouraged - you're no more of a woman by cleaning the entire house with one lemon and an old toothbrush than by using an expensive but effective cleaning product. And any possible other thing you can think of, but with a feminist slant.

The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time. It might require a shift in your thinking/vocabulary. Your husband and children, if you have them, don't "help" with the housework, they have their own share. If you are doing their share, or even part of it, you are in fact the one who is helping them, so get that recognised and appreciated. And of course support/moaning room here too (and no assumptions that you have a partner or your partner is male - just mentioned a lot because of the bias a lot of other threads have towards "Men are just wired differently and can't see dirt, lol, what are they like!")

Anyone in? :)

'The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time.'

Well, I think it's a splendid idea, and I've lived along those lines for almost 30 years since I left home.
First in a student house, then with my partner who was a student from that house, then as a working couple, then on maternity leave, then as a WOHM with a WAHH and small children, then as a working couple with children, then as a working couple with teenagers...
The balance has shifted back and forth, including the children at an appropriate level and now I have two teens that see housework in the same way.
We have fairly low standards about some things that my SIL shudders at, and fairly high standards in other areas, but it works reasonably well for all. Yes, there are jobs that everyone avoids that have to be done eventually, but they are not seen as any one person's area of responsibility.
My mother was a martyr, and that attitude pissed me off beyond telling.
So I was determined that whatever my situation, we'd be equals.

I did have a little think about this when I went to bed this morning last night.

Now, I understand the premise of "whoever's at home does the majority of the housework" but the idea that whoever work's does not need to get up to the DC if they wake during the night kinda bugged me. Now, it takes two people to create a DC (basic biology here; My old biology teacher would be proud). Therefore it takes two people to care for the DC. Surely if one DP refuses to do childcare duties because one DP works and the other is a SAHP, that is going to damage the WOHP's relationship with the DC? It sends out a pretty poor message to the DC that "it's ok for a parent to emotionally neglect a DC if the parent is working"... Something the media keeps accusing WOHM's of. Surely the setting should be that, whilst at home, childcare is divided equally between the parents, not because of duties and who does the most chores/productive work during the day, but because your DC deserve to know that both of their parents will be there whenever they need them, and your DC deserve to have a strong relationship with both parents, regardless of who works the most hours. DC aren't stupid. They pick up on who provides the most care for them. They also pick up on who provides the nighttime cuddles, feeds, nappy changes, duvet changes and chases the monsters out of the bedroom after a nightmare at 3:30 am.

Sorry, that's a bit wittery and makes little sense. Have my dyspraxic, dyslexic AND manic head on atm.

It's also a logical error, Frothy. If SAH has a job which is seen as 40 hrs of child & house care, while WOH has job + commute of 40 hrs ... both are doing same amount of 'job'. So any and all duties outside those hours should be split 50/50, surely.

That as well, garlic... Try getting some people to accossiate SAH duties with real work, though... :(

Also, doesn;t the "unwaged SAHP" vs the "waged WOHP" argument leave a few gaps? Where do full time students fit in? Or people who volunteer? I mean, they're not the "waged" WOHP... But you can't call them the "unwaged" SAHP either... So they don't fit into the argument., it seems...

Well, people have paid jobs and study/volunteer You have to build it into your time plan, don't you.

I guess what you said about getting people to associate SAH duties with real work is the problem. I really see nothing wrong with logging what you do all day! In some cases, a SAHP would find s/he does less work than they thought but, on the whole, it will be more. And a lot easier to discuss with partner like that - you can cost out replacement services, if necessary. That usually does the trick!

It's an interesting subject but hard to really keep tally of who does what and hours worked as everyones situation can be so different. I'm a SAHM with kids in school so don't have to deal with childcare in school hours. Husband travels away to work sometimes for weeks on end, he also have to work in the evenings and has been in conference calls at 2am in the morning though at the moment he is home doing not that much for weeks at a time. I think the whole thing of balancing out WOH and SAH hours/duties is very difficult and can lead to a lot of resentment,loss of respect and hurt. If 2 partners are out working roughly the same hours it should be easier to work things out and share the load but even then it doesn't always work like that. The subjects quite a minefield.

"I really see nothing wrong with logging what you do all day!"

I see everything wrong with it.

For one thing it is demeaning (unless it is for the purposes of billing clients). I refuse to account for every minute of my day in my professional life, I'd be fucked if I was going to agree to do it at home.

For another thing, in most jobs involving any resourcefulness, initiative and creativity it counts entirely the wrong things. Those are qualities I think should be highly prized in someone who is taking care of children, and so I don't want the person who minds my children to have to account for their time that way (whether of not it is me).

The thing I still really don't get though, and nobody has ever managed to explain it to me is what would change about my life if my DH stopped working to look after our children.

Well OK, some things would change that would make my life easier - no more CM drop offs and pick ups, no more worries about when they were sick, etc.

But I can't see any way at all that it would make my life harder such that I would no longer be able to do the housework I currently do at home.

As far as I can see the only reason to stop doing work and demand that DH did it because it was at home is to assert my power over him as the sole earner.

That is not a relationship I want to be a part of.

In an ideal world. I work part time and i do most of the stuff in the house. My DH does do some stuff when he is off.

My DC do very little. They are teenagers and my YD (16) feels hard done by because i want her to do her own ironing. Yesterday I spent most of the day cleaning and they just did school work or lazed about. they stripped their beds.

I dont do their rooms now either. I really hate the set up but its easier to do it myself TBH.

so who is the global we who determine posts problematic on fem topics?
"we have explained where we see your posts as problematic. Why not examine your views"

and i have explained i will post across mn on any topic as i wish whether or not the we wish to resort to name calling and considering posts as problematic.and for as long as some of you specifically address me and name call i will specifically respond. consider that derail if you wish (and you probably will) but well some of you actively up the ante by name calling

so to recap what i said isnt imo contentious
if you are unwaged housewife,home,children,chores is your predominately your housewife remit. gven te waged earner is out working externally housewife should be doing chores etc internally

SheCutOffTheirTails - I meant as a useful tool when considering the problem with a partner, not doing a daily timesheet as a matter of course!

People who don't post misogyny, for one, SM.

I don't think, FWIW, I've ever been called a troll or derailer. I'm still a newbie to the section (4 months is a newbie, right?), and I've posted some deeply patriachal, misogynistic stuff in my early days. Instead, there's the option of going off, looking up reasons you'll have been told something by a feminist and considering where you've gone wrong.

Also, derailer/troll etc is not thrown about everytime the feminists disagree. There's times we can't agree on the day of the week, let alone abortion, porn culture, or any other isssue. There's a difference between disagreeing, getting things wrong and accepting it, and continuously posting misogyny and then wailing "but I'm always being told I'm a misogynist/troll/derailer" when 596564698644 posts later, you haven't even tried to understand the feminist POV. Under your arguement, SGB would be called a troll everytime she said she doesn't think all porn is bad, I would have been called every name under the sun during my early days here, and once we agreed on whether the default was radical feminism, liberal feminism or whatever, then everyone who strayed from the default view would be hounded out.

If it's only a handful of people having the problem, they should take an internal look as to whether they are posting misogyny and really not understanding feminism at all.

i dont post misogyny,i dont necessarily post to your liking.but no thats not misogyny.given fem topics is suppose to be discursive you cannot predict what anyone else pov will be.

garlic - I don't think it is a good tool, any more than the other often suggested one of presenting your partner with a bill for the work you do.

Both accept that the working partner is the boss of the other, and that (to me at least) is where the problem arises.

Being a SAHP is not a "job", its value derives not from what it provides for the family financially (although that is one benefit) but from what it provides in terms of time, ease, relaxation, enjoyment, nurturing, flexibility.

I really HATE the idea that only things of monetary value count, and I think in a world where women own less property and are paid less money, it is a strategic error to fight these battles on the ground of economics.

I like the work/responsibility analogy, chibi.

The thing with working outside the home, if one partner does this and the other is SAHP, then it's still not clear-cut about who works the "hardest" or who is more tired etc, because there are so many factors which some into play. So it's better to play it by ear WRT how busy each person has been, how tired each feels at any particular time, whether there are other stresses such as projects or a sick child which need undivided attention, although this kind of approach does require a respectful relationship where one person isn't going to slack off with excuses about being tired unless they genuinely are and nobody is playing a competitive "I've got it so much harder than you" game.

I'd actually class "working outside of the home" as a form of housework anyway, as it is work required to keep the household running. So it should be valued in this way, but so should childcare, as this is just as important. Whether you get chance for a break or not in the day is variable just as it is with working outside the home for a wage.

Currently DP works full time but at night, I'd say we're doing about equal amounts of stuff actually in the house, I do a lot more with DS, and obviously he goes to work. I probably actually get more leisure time at the moment though so I'm thinking I need to step in and pick up more slack than I am at the moment, we are both a bit rubbish at keeping up with stuff, TBH. The only concrete thing we have arranged between us is that I deal with all laundry if he deals with all dish-washing (by hand). We're sticking to this but the in between stuff like tidying up the living room or wiping down the kitchen surfaces or cleaning the bathroom seems to get to a point where one of us gets fed up with it and just does it. I probably do this more, but it's about 2:3 I'd imagine, it just doesn't get done nearly as often as it should but having said that, the overall level is better than it was before DP moved in. I want to allocate us certain rooms each which are our own responsibility, so there are some rooms I don't have to worry about and it's less overwhelming. Mentioned this to DP the other day and he said he wouldn't mind doing that. Just unsure ATM of what is a fair split. Thinking I should probably have more rooms than him just because I have more free time at the moment, but I won't when I go back to uni.

Mummy2munchkin, do you get any days off at all? I don't see why you shouldn't have a day at a spa, if you can afford it. If you're feeling guilty about him having cooked and cleaned up, try counting up how many times you have done the same in the last month and then see if it still feels like he's doing you a massive favour! I think it's good that you have given yourself permission to lower your standards from what you felt was essential before, especially if this has taken a weight off your mind. It is nice to do these things occasionally, but every day just seems like overkill. If you don't manage to do all the washing one day, so what? It won't take a minute to put it on the next day, or even perhaps you could start asking DH to put a wash in in the evenings if there are leftovers you want done before the morning.

AuntieMonica - didn't mean lemons weren't allowed! Just that shortcuts/doing a job to an acceptable rather than perfect level is nothing to be ashamed of. If you have the time and inclination and value the saving (of money and the planet!) it makes or it gives you more satisfaction or whatever then it's definitely worth it.

HereBe This might be a useless suggestion as I have no experience of primary age children, but taking vague ideas from "How To Talk..." here, is it worth sitting down with the boys with some pens and paper and maybe some snacks or something and going through, room by room, what kinds of jobs need doing monthly, weekly, daily etc just to make them aware of how much the entire workload is? And then see what kinds of ideas they come up with with how it might be fair to spread things out, or whether they have any ideas about how to make it more appealing or how to make sure everyone is doing their share. The idea is to let them come up with suggestions without shooting them down, even if it's something like "Let's just not do it at all" "Let's just buy new plates when they get dirty" "Let's just build a cleaning robot" and you can also add some ideas up your sleeve, like maybe doing some challenges (idea nicked from Flylady here) where they each have to run around and find 20 items which belong in their bedrooms from other areas of the house and bring them up, or 20 items of rubbish, or 10 things to go to the charity shop. Or designating a particular time of the week to be family cleaning hour, where everyone works together on a particular job (or you hand out jobs a bit like an army major and they report back when finished for another - you could even run with the army theme a bit here to make it seem fun) so it isn't hanging over them that they are supposed to be tidying, but playing is more fun, so I might as well put it off for a bit longer, mum might forget or get fed up of nagging me - if it's at a designated time then they can plan their stuff around that, and once it's over, it's done and they are free to go. (This is something I use for myself!) So you write down all the suggestions everyone has made and then go through them all one by one and talk about how it might work and whether there are any problems with that idea, and then you can cross out the ones which are unworkable, and hopefully, you are left with a plan which you can then refer back to if they are being uncooperative!

You've posted plenty of misogyny, IMO... But still. We'll leave it there, cos I can't be arsed with this row.

"In my wage paying job, i am expected to keep my work area tidyieh and clean my tea mug/not leave it to fester, but no one expects me to hoover the carpets or clean the toilets or wash the floors, just because i'm there anyway- if nothing else it would take me away from my actual work"

Totally agree, chibi.

I made this point on another thread last week and got told that "there's a cleaner employed to clean your office", which seemed to me to only make my point for me, but there you go.

With ref to your 11.41 post Frothy, I agree that childcare needs to be split regardless.

Obviously my situation is less clear cut than most as I work out of the home part-time but spend a significant amount of time parenting alone when DH travels. But when he is here, and when I was on maternity leave and he was working more regular daytime hours, we still split all the night feeds etc.

In fact when DS was tiny, the person who had spent all day with him often DIDN'T do the night feeds at all (sometimes DH, sometimes me). I think that sometimes it's really important to replenish your patience / energy levels to do a good job of parenting (that's what I'm really struggling with at the moment in fact, with DH away).

I really don't see how that is possible for SAHMs (or Ds!) s with young children who are also expected to do all the 'out of hours' childcare and night feeds too. And the few couples I know who DO use this system (including a dad who spent a YEAR sleeping in the spare room "because he had to work") then seem ASTONISHED that the baby doesn't seem to like / trust their dad very much! Well why would they? He is basically a stranger. There's no opportunity for the baby to build up trust & love if it is always the SAHM/D who responds to their needs. As long as the baby has one parent who DOES respond, that will be fine for the baby - there is one person who they are bonded with. But think how much the other parent is missing out on!

I suspect from there it is also much, much easier to fall into gender stereotypes of parenting as a whole. Mummy is the loving kind nurturing one who can be taken for granted, Daddy is the exciting challenging disciplinarian whose approval must be fought for.

having a one wage set up were worker has to be out of home working does, of course mean one parent does more childcare.but its a massive leap to try assert that results in absent father or poor attachment to waged parent.attachment is about consistency, ongoing regard. if the absent dad at work set up is so unpalatable to some,why collude with it?why ,make self wholly dependent upon wage of someone else,resulting in them earn externally and then complain they are never around

wouldn't it be better housewife seek paid employment, share responsibility for earning jointly.perhaps the sole earner would be less compelled to be out so much

Please re-read my post scottishmummy, as I think you may have misunderstood me.

I do not think that having a 'one wage set-up' results in an 'absent father or poor attachment to waged parent'.

What I think is that if one parent is out of the home much more than the other, then it is very important for that parent to share in childcare when they are in the home (e.g. evenings, breakfast, night feeds, weekends) in order to clearly demonstrate to the child that both of its parents are responsive to its needs. Which seems to me the basis of 'bonding' - as the baby gets older, it starts to trust that its parents will be there if it is scared / cold / hungry / sad etc.

I have lots of friends who are in a much more 'traditional' family set-up than I am, where one parent stays at home or only works very short hours whilst the other parent works longer hours out of the home. Plenty of the waged parents are very closely bonded to their children precisely because they recognised how important this was and behaved accordingly.

Bertie the problem with allocating rooms is that there are some jobs which need to be done all at once, across several rooms (e.g. picking up the trail of socks / toys, hoovering, putting things back where they belong etc)

DH and I do have a similar idea to an extent though where when we are 'on rota' the kitchen is his responsibility (inc washing up, dishwasher, cleaning floor & surfaces) and the bathroom, downstairs loo & bedroom sinks are mine. That works quite well as he is more 'bothered' by things being out of place in the kitchen (but can wee into a filthy loo happily for months) whereas I like a clean bog!

We are supposed to split the laundry (e.g. whoever is at home that day does a load, hangs it up, puts away) but it is definitely one of the sticking points still.

And yes it is very hard to avoid the "I've got it so much harder than you" game!

Although I found it much easier once I was working some days and he was spending some days with DS. Once our lives were more similar the game lost a lot of the urgency / fury.

A better game to play is "you've got it so much harder than I".

How does that one work then? and will it get me breakfast in bed?

Well it works in recognising that raising small children is hard work and that you're both in it together, so instead of focusing on how hard you (individually) have it, you spend more time being glad you have someone nice to share it with and trying to make sure they aren't too tired/stressed/bored.

So yes, you do get breakfast in bed, because the other person is looking out for you too.

We have four teenagers, an au pair and a 2 year old in the house.

I UTTERLY refuse to be anybody's house elf, so implemented the following a while ago.

We have a strict rota for:
cooking supper
Washing up
laying the table

Cleaning is now done fortnightly by means of a tick chart. One box = one task for an entire room (eg- sweeping/mopping or vacuuming, dusting, cleaning (bathrooms), etc...) There are around £50 boxes on my chart. Everybody initials a box when they've done it. One tick= £1 to spend on a takeaway for all of us. We used to spend £100 a month on a cleaning lady, we now spend £100 a month on two takeaways and they take more responsibility for their own shit.

Every other task required (eg car washing, lawn mowing) is done by whichever among the children appears least busy or most busy on non-essential tasks.