Feminist approach to housework chat/support thread

[BertieBotts]

We were talking about this ages ago and it never materialised, so I decided to start one. Kind of a space for discussing how to split housework, how to get DPs/DHs/DCs doing more, how to foster a good attitude in sons, and indeed daughters. How to tell if your standards are actually your standards or some arbitrary level of "clean" you think you need to maintain in order to not be judged. Whether you can lower those standards to get away with less work. Whether you are in fact doing more than your DP without realising due to hidden "wifework" etc. Whether you have ended up with the shitty jobs while he cherry picks the nicer ones, and how to change this. Shortcuts are encouraged - you're no more of a woman by cleaning the entire house with one lemon and an old toothbrush than by using an expensive but effective cleaning product. And any possible other thing you can think of, but with a feminist slant.

The first assumption on this thread is that housework is not the job of the woman, or even the job of the unemployed partner or stay-at-home parent, but that it is the responsibility of everyone who lives in the house. Whether some family members do less at some times because of age, ability, illness, or other pressures is fair enough, but overall it should be a fair split, taking these criteria into account and recognising that they are going to change over time. It might require a shift in your thinking/vocabulary. Your husband and children, if you have them, don't "help" with the housework, they have their own share. If you are doing their share, or even part of it, you are in fact the one who is helping them, so get that recognised and appreciated. And of course support/moaning room here too (and no assumptions that you have a partner or your partner is male - just mentioned a lot because of the bias a lot of other threads have towards "Men are just wired differently and can't see dirt, lol, what are they like!")

Anyone in? :)

"most busy on non-essential tasks."

:o

That's me! - busy on non-essential tasks.

Grumpla you can still separate it out fairly easily. I tend to tidy rooms one by one anyway, I just arrange things into piles or boxes if they belong in other rooms and take them out when I've finished. So I tend to get ready a washing basket, rubbish bag, small empty toybox, other box (or pile which then goes on top of thing heading in the right direction) and just pile up things like plates and cups in one place.

Things like hoovering, possibly make a general task instead? We only tend to hoover in the living room downstairs as it's the only room with carpet, and use a broom in the others which isn't as much of a faff to get out to do one room. But you're right, if I take it upstairs, (which is rare) I tend to do both bedrooms, the landing and the stairs because I don't want to have to take it up again for a while. With a toddler though I find the living room needs hoovering daily so we just keep it out much of the time.

This thread is topical for me, having just read Wifework, and things with DH being ... interesting.

I work long hours at home, DH works variable (sometimes very long) hours out of the home, we earn roughly the same. No children, so I am testing things out. I've tried to talk to him and he does not get it. He's pretty good, but I am worried about what would happen if we had children as I can see it becoming uneven very fast. There seem to be 3 problems - he reckons I have higher standards; he says he does certain jobs/would do them 'if they needed doing' but I don't honestly think either is true, and he argues some things don't need doing (eg it doesn't matter if pans are put away not really clean as you'll use them again, etc.).

I've tried talking so at the moment, I have done what he suggested and am leaving things alone - he reckons if I 'relax' my standards I will realize a bit of mess is ok and he will end up doing more as I won't have done jobs 'before they need doing'. Thus far it is fucking depressing and shitty as the place feels like a tip to me and it's annoying me. He has got confused a couple of times because food goes off when you don't fridge it and has suggested there my be something that smells funny 'outside'. But he hasn't yet realized (or at least admitted) that anything is dirty.

If this sounds petty, I'm comfortable in the knowledge that whenever I bring up jobs that I do and he never does, he says it's petty to keep track.

This is by the way of an experiment so we'll see how it goes and atm I'm just posting to check in because I'm interested in the thread. Hope that's ok.

LRD you've read this, right?

Would your DH read it? It's only a couple of pages long.

I was just finishing this when my husband came in and asked what I was doing. Writing a paper on housework. "Housework?" he said. "Housework? Oh my god how trivial can you get? A paper on housework."

He might read it, thanks blackcurrants. He's reading Delusions of Gender atm. Thanks. I think though he probably just doesn't actually know what happens when you don't do the 'petty' stuff.

I liked the sitting down and working out ideas suggestion, but I like Duchesse's strict rota even better. I was actually thinking of having a bathroom rota - once a week, everyone cleans the loo, so that means it gets cleaned 3 times a week, that's acceptable isn't it? Same for sink, bath I'm anal about so has to be cleaned every time it's used. I think the choice I will give them, is what day they get to choose. Cunning eh?

I think it's really important that both children, DS and DD, learn that everyone in the house does their fair share, DS so that he doesn't expect his DW to do it and DD so that she doesn't expect her DH not to. Growing up knowing it's your job to clean the loo, put the clothes out, vacuum the carpet, cook the tea, not someone else's, is really important from a feminist parenting perspective.

Has he read WifeWork LRD?

Not yet, ThereBe, I only bought it last week.

Ah yes you're the one who got through it in a few hours aren't you?

I wonder if your DH will read it as quickly as you?

Duchesse - I like that, it's very clever.
Thus when they do the cleaning they feel like they are contributing to the treat for everybody, which would make the job extra satisfying even beyond the satisfaction from the cleaned room.

Doubt it - he reads more slowly than me, though he is cracking through D of G, so maybe.

I am quite confused by all these threads, TBH. It's hard working out what's rational and what's not, isn't it?

Yes. And dodging the snipers is challenging.

Now I have to work out how many ticks... a takeaway once a month perhaps... I won't tell them it's only once a month, I'll just say it needs 10 ticks/ 40 ticks/ 655,000 ticks...

Damn, I've only just spotted this thread and I don't have time to read it all now. :( Don't mind me, I'm just making sure I can find it straight away tomorrow for breakfast reading!

This is a somewhat sensitive issue for me. Lack of fairness about domestic chores was, for me, the issue that finally made me realise that I was in a relationship with an abuser who had no respect for me whatsoever.

Nothing is more guaranteed to make me see red than the implication that I am supposed to clean up after someone else. I make my 4-year-old DTs clear their toys away every day and don't even have to remind them anymore to put their dirty clothes in the laundry basket. They often help with the cooking and cleaning. I don't make them, they ask. I encourage them on the basis of how else are they supposed to learn? There are only two 'unbreakable' rules in this house: 1. no hitting. 2. Whoever makes the mess is responsible for clearing it away (obviously with help where appropriate).

I am aware that I am possibly neurotic about this BTW.

However, I think I am doing my DC (and their future housemates/partners) a favour. This sort of clearing up after yourself behaviour will be so ingrained with them that 'wifework'-type issues should never rear its head in their relationships, and if it does they will instantly recognise it for what it is as I also talk to them about why it is wrong to make a mess and expect someone else to tidy it up for you, etc.

Despite this, I am not house proud. I don't go round plumping cushions or whatever. I am tidy because I spent too many years living in places the size of shoeboxes, which meant that unless you put stuff away you were likely to break your neck. However, I never spend more than a few mins a day on housework, only vacuum when necessary (about once or twice a week), only dust when I think "oh shit, I could write my name in that" etc.

if i may add a male perspective here
teaching sons to clean and do other domestic chores as much as daughters is sooo important, not only for any feminist credential but for themselves.

theres nothing worse that a ( forgive my terminology) 'tit to tit' man . He go's from mother to wife having learned that he only needs to bring home the bacon. what happens if his wife gets cancer or gets institutionalised or indeed leaves him because he never cleans up? can he boil an egg? wash his own clothes? stop the house from looking like a pig sty after a few weeks?

i knew an old guy in my neighbourhood when i was young, he used to talk at me under whisky-laced breath, he was lonely, his wife had died a few years earlier......he smelt terrible, he had a urine stains trickleing down his trousers , glad i never saw where he lived .

a man , like a woman should be able to look after themselves.

one more thing, after reading this thread i note that SM has not insulted anyone , i congradulate her on this given the torrent of insults she has taken. and before anyone has a go at me about my grammer, like the cheep jibes poked at SM , i'm deslexic. and i couldnt be arsed looking for a dictionary.

Just marking for reading later.

Exactly, it's beneficial to everyone to be able to be self-sufficient. I think everyone would agree, (I've only ever seen one poster on MN say that you should do everything for your children), the point is, how to implement this? I'm going for the involve them early even if it's a PITA and hopefully they will take it for granted approach, but if you've slipped out of this or never started it or DCs have become resistant as they get older then you have to think of ways around that.

HereBe Rotas are good, but I'm ashamed to admit my sister and I gave our mum an awful time when she implemented one. It started out fine with just washing up, but as more things were added we'd put it off and put it off until she gave up and did it herself. Including the washing up. We were teenagers though. Hopefully your boys are young enough to mould!

Yes but did you have a curry integrated into the rota scheme, BB?

(Have only 1 boy btw - DS 12.)

The issue of lowering standards is an interesting one. Those of us who have partners who suggest this, are you really resisting because you genuinely have higher standards, or because the mess is held against you as the woman or AH parent?

I remember years ago in a tip of a student house: me and three men. They were responsible for most of the mess, although I was far from houseproud. Still, whenever their relatives or one of their girlfriends (only one, mind) appeared, it was always me that was asked why everything was such a tip.

Clanger - I suspect I mind more partly because I'm the one at home most of the time. I wonder how much that's an issue? I just spend more time with my feet sticking to the floor if it's sticky!

I'm always a bit suspicious of the "lower your standards" argument.

How far?

And why is it only with housework, that it's considered reasonable for someone to tell you to lower your standards? And why only with someone you have sex with? No one would tell you to lower your standards if you lived with a friend who was a slob - they'd acknowledge that there are other options to lowering your standards.

Now I know that some people are a bit OCD and grab the glass out of your hand to wash it while you are actually still drinking - but on the whole, women whose standards aren't particularly high, are constantly being told to lower them to that of the men they live with, when that low standard would make them feel uncomfortable in their own living space.

I'm too tired to have a sensible discussion about this atm, but I just want to throw that out there for later. I've posted similar before, but my view is that if you live with someone, their comfort is important to you - if you know that they get edgy and miserable with plates being left on the coffee table for ten hours when you can simply take them with you next time you leave the room/ stuff being left on the stairs when they could be taken up each time you go to the loo/ papers being strewn around for no reason - why would you think you had the right to subject them to that? Why is it that in this one particular area of life, the consideration to the comfort you are generally expected to show people in all other areas of life, can suddenly be suspended?

That's my gut discomfort with the lower your standards POV. That only when it's someone you have a sexual relationship, only with regard to the environment you live in, is that considered reasonable advice.

Last one before I go to bed: I find the talk above about "housewives" and "wage earners" needlessly oppositional. It assumes that all "wage earners" have terribly important jobs requiring huge amounts of concentration, when that is often not true. Usually not true, I suspect.

It's also impossible to "take it easy" with a hyperactive toddler about, or when your MIL is descending on your home the following day.