Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Honour killing"

366 replies

Greythorne · 07/09/2011 19:27

Even with quotation marks, I really loathe the use of "honour killing".

Talk about misuse of the word "honour"

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/07/shafilea-parents-arrested-suspected-honour-killing

OP posts:
JosephineB · 09/09/2011 14:40

Oh I give up. Do you honestly think you are the only Muslim feminist on MN? Or the only person who has heard of google? And you accuse me of being patronising. Hmm

What I said was the Quar'an does not specify the wearing of veils. Which is true. As you are no doubt aware, there is disagreement amongst Muslims about the authenticity / interpretations / validity of hadith just as there are disagreements between Christians.

Personally, I think it would be entirely valid to say to a Catholic that attending confession is not a requirement to be a good Christian so your analogy doesn't really work as you intended.

Also for some reason you have decided that veil = hijab which it doesn't. the hijab is only one type of veil that Muslim women may wear - up to and including the burqua.

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 14:50

Goth........Who mentioned the fucking Burka?not me.

All types of religious clothing, and other requirements that men have imposed upon women via religion is fair games actually. It pins a woman as obedient this in turn is a refelction on men of the family, this in turn makes them they have the right to kill their daughters, wives and sisters when they are not obedient. It's all part of the same story,

Goth. Go and bang another drum.

And as far as I'm concerned there is no place for any watering down of killing your own flesh and blood in a predominantly secular society..

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 14:52

too fast and missing words..... I feel like Cod.

Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 14:54

KRICRI, I didn't realise that salwar kameez is religious attire, I thought it was traditional dress, so yes I did mean the burqa.

I agree with you that hotpants etc are objectifying and I agree with you about the 'opaque choice' to wear highly sexualized clothing in a society which fetishizes women's body parts and female sexuality.

GothAnne, I was careful to specify that my thoughts about women's clothing were in the context of honour killings. I happened to speak about Pakistan because I have just read and linked to a document from Amnesty international about Pakistan. I am currently reading about honour killings in India and it is just as depressing.

I imagine that the women in the very traditional communities which support honour killing do not have a great deal of choice in what they wear. I was referring to women from these communities only - I do not assume to know anything about the clothing choices of all the women in Pakistan or any other country. The reason I think that these particular women do not have much choice about clothing is because 'immodest attire' was one of the pretexts given for honour killing in one of the documents I read.

I have no desire for this discussion to turn into a burqa thread - I have always avoided such threads up until now.

GothAnneGeddes · 09/09/2011 14:56

Josephine - Are you still lecturing me
on my own religion? Yes, that is patronsing. I'm fully aware of the different types of veiling and the different rulings around them because it is my actual religion. You tried to claim that no veilings were obligatory, I corrected you.

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 14:59

Beach......noone is talking about the Burka.

JosephineB · 09/09/2011 15:16
Hmm
BobBanana · 09/09/2011 15:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MitchiestInge · 09/09/2011 15:37

we are so so lucky

KRICRI · 09/09/2011 15:39

See, I think we all get muddled up when we think other people will know what we are talking about, when we don't always! :)

Beachcomber, when you referred to clothing worn by Pakistani women, I thought Salwar Kameez because well, that seems to be the main type of clothing Pakistani women wear both here and in Pakistan. You were thinking of something more like a burkha though, which from what I understand, is worn only by a minority of women in Pakistan. I think both would see what they wear as in keeping with their faith. See how easy it is to get confused?

To sort of get back to the "honour killings" theme though, Beach, you suggested that one of the reasons a woman could be subject to an honour killing would be due to "immodest attire."

But, I keep coming back to the excuses men in Britain often give for attacking or killing their partners. There are often comments like that they dressed to slutty, flirted with other men, had affairs - a form of "immodest behaviour," so not miles from the rationalisation used for honour killings.

Often in reports where men have killed partners / ex-partners, there are suggestions (or direct statements) that the men felt humiliated by the woman. She laughed at him, she taunted him, she flirted or had an affair under his nose or behind his back, she didn't respect him, in short . . . she did something to dishonour him or in some way, violated perhaps an unspoken "code" of acceptable behaviour for women.

MitchiestInge · 09/09/2011 15:42

didn't finish post, lucky to have benefit of superior minds pointing out how and where we are going wrong

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 15:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 15:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 15:50

I didn't suggest immodest attire could be a reason for an honour killing. I said that I had read it in a document (it was from a series about the rights of women in Pakistan by Amnesty International).

I specified that I was talking about women's clothing in the context of honour killings. (ie not all women in Pakistan).

I have already agreed on this thread that domestic violence against women in the UK, comes from the same place as that of honour killings (ie misogyny, objectification and commodification of women ).

UsingMainlySpoons · 09/09/2011 15:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

edd1337 · 09/09/2011 16:03

convince yourself the feminist section is men vs women.

No ones saying that

You are right though Bob, if a man has a different opinion we are called RAs, misogynisyt, asked questions whish we answer then told we are derailing the thread then reported

UsingMainlySpoons · 09/09/2011 16:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 16:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 16:08

K..... Do you have any evidence of those reasons stated by men that beat their wives?

Because for me a man's honour is just about controlling a woman's behaviour.

UsingMainlySpoons · 09/09/2011 16:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 16:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 16:10

Can we please shut the fuck up about how shit is is to be a male poster here?

a) We have already gone over why some male posters come across badly and are therefore badly received.

b) It is getting in the way of discussions.

c) It is tedious as fuck.

edd1337 · 09/09/2011 16:11

People will tend to refute weird statements - that isn't lashing out against men, is it?

Again, you have it all wrong

Refute all you want, argue and disagree all you want. No problem this is an open forum. It seems the norm though to take words out of context and throw personal attacks in certain people direction

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 16:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn