Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Honour killing"

366 replies

Greythorne · 07/09/2011 19:27

Even with quotation marks, I really loathe the use of "honour killing".

Talk about misuse of the word "honour"

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/07/shafilea-parents-arrested-suspected-honour-killing

OP posts:
Greythorne · 09/09/2011 12:43

Edd
Are you camille paglia?

OP posts:
Greythorne · 09/09/2011 12:46

To NOT expect to be harrassed or assaulted is just naive.

We are going to need a new feminists board off the beaten track where Edd and BananaBob can't find us because this is just getting tiresome.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 12:46

I don't think SaF was 'having a pop' at a culture. I think that is unfair but perhaps I have misunderstood you?

I think she was saying how due to 'otherness' and ignorance, it is relatively easy for people to not think too much about things like honour killings, beatings, etc because they happen far away from home in a culture that is foreign to them (except we know they happen in the UK too). She then went on to express how she feels about religious attire for women (I think clumsily).

I do happen to think myself (and I am talking specifically in the context of honour killings) that the religious attire worn by say the women in Pakistan is dehumanizing. I think it is part of the commodification and objectification of the women by the men.

As I said before though, I don't think the women there are asked how they feel about it.

JosephineB · 09/09/2011 12:48

What a low opinion of men you have there Ed.

And comparing rape to theft is offensive and a hopelessly ineffective analogy.

Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 12:53

Woooooooooosssshhhhhhh.

That was KRICRI's point flying over Ed's head at great height and great speed.

KRICRI · 09/09/2011 13:03

Greythorne - Edd, Are you camille paglia? :o

(wipes coffee off monitor)

edd1337 · 09/09/2011 13:09

Here's an idea then

Why don't YOU go to a bar wearing hardly anything and see what happens. You genuinly think you wont be harassed? What rock are you living on?

The analogy may not be comparable, but people steal just like people rape

NotADudeExactly · 09/09/2011 13:15

Seriously, edd, I'm so not surprised that women are regularly harassed at the kind of place where you hand out. Just saying, ...

WakeMeUpWhenSeptemberEnds · 09/09/2011 13:16

Here's an idea. Two men go into a pub for a pub lunch. They're dressed smartly, lookin' good. They have lunch and leave. Apparently it was a gay bar. Were they lucky not to have been sexually assaulted?

Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 13:19

Ed you totally missed the point.

We are not talking about rape apology. It might be one of your favourite subjects, but it is not what this thread is about.

Stop dragging threads down to the lowest common denominator.

KRICRI · 09/09/2011 13:21

(Tissues in bin, back on track)

Beachcomber, I didn't actually mean that SaF was having a pop at a culture, but just a general observation of what I've experienced from looooooooooong years on message boards discussing stuff like this. Sooner or later, things always seem to morph into some kind of attack on the minority group seen to be connected with whatever the OP is about.

I'll apologise in advance for going waaaay off on a tangent here (and promise not to do it again! :) )

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by religious attire worn in Pakistan. If you mean a salwar kameez, I've got a wardrobe full of them and I'm not Pakistani or muslim. I just love how they look and it's the next best thing to wearing your pj's for comfort! Did you mean something else like a burkha?

In my view, there are all sorts of clothing women wear that I think to be "dehumanizing" and could be seen as part of comodifying and objectifying of women by men. Although I don't immediately think of religion-connected clothing (e.g. Amish plain dress and cap, nun's habit, hijab, etc.) I do accept that it could be viewed that way. What I tend to think of more is highly sexualised, revealing clothing like hotpants, platform heels and tight strappy tops.

I accept that we tend to think that the former have no choice in what they wear - that acceptable attire is defined by the men who dominate the faith community they are part of. Likewise, we tend to assume that women in barely-there clothing dashing from club to club on a Saturday night freely choose what they wear.

Maybe in both cases, the concept of "choice" is rather opaque.

edd1337 · 09/09/2011 13:22

Seriously, edd, I'm so not surprised that women are regularly harassed at the kind of place where you hand out. Just saying, ...

Sounds like you're accusing me in particular

Here's an idea. Two men go into a pub for a pub lunch. They're dressed smartly, lookin' good. They have lunch and leave. Apparently it was a gay bar. Were they lucky not to have been sexually assaulted?

Nope. They know in advance where they are going

^Ed you totally missed the point.

We are not talking about rape apology. It might be one of your favourite subjects, but it is not what this thread is about.

Stop dragging threads down to the lowest common denominator.^

Certainly not a favourite subject. Though I am arguing with someone who believes in guilty until proven innocent

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 13:36

Hang on a minute, we're talking about 'honour killings' which, as far as I'm aware, is something we call killings of women by family members within specific communities.

Surely we're allowed to criticise those communities that cultivate 'honour killings' and fully examine what part different practices have to play in this crime that is ultimately about male control.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/09/2011 13:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JosephineB · 09/09/2011 13:39

Ed: You have completely missed the point but this thread is not about rape so I'll leave it there.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/09/2011 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

edd1337 · 09/09/2011 13:42

IT seems you didn't read my posts earlier and you think im just derailing. Nevermind

Wamster · 09/09/2011 13:45

I sort of agree with edd on one aspect but not the other.

Yes, it may be true that a woman who is dressed in sexy clothing is more likely to be chatted up than one that is dressed in a very covered up fashion if she enters a bar.
I've been to bars dressed up and been chatted up, when my hair scraped back and I'm dressed in baggy cover-ups it does not happen.

OK, I agree that is true, and, well, there is no harm in chatting up if the man is respectful when the women tells him she is not interested.

BUT, rape is something else entirely and it does not matter what a woman is wearing when it comes to rape.

ThePosieParker · 09/09/2011 13:51

What has rape myth got to do with honour killings and the language used which alter the fact that a man or men has killed a female member of his family because she has 'shamed' him?

GothAnneGeddes · 09/09/2011 13:58

Josephine - Quranists are a tiny minority sect within Islam, so to use their interpretations to say that hijab isn't required is wrong and patronising.

Beachcomber - Who exactly doesn't ask Pakistani women about their clothing? Do you think Pakistani women are not capable of having their own discourse about clothing? Or is it that in a similar manner to "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound", that if Muslim women have their own conversations, but no one can be bothered listening, they aren't talking at all?

No, Posie you do not have the right to turn everything into a burqa thread, you've had enough of those already.

I despair. I know plenty of Muslim feminists, but so many stay away from mainstream feminism because of crap like this, having to tackle the same old arguments.

Again, this thread is about Honour Killing, something that impacts women from a variety of religious and cultural backgrounds.

If you want a burqa thread, go and start one. I won't be there. IFAIK, all the Muslim women on MN avoid them now, so they won't be there either. So you can have your burqa thread with no Muslim women on it at all. How productive and not even slightly dubious that will be.

KRICRI · 09/09/2011 14:05

Well yes, it's a bit weird to tie what is seen as "honour based crimes" to Islam, or what Muslim women wear in different countries. There are plenty of perpetrators and victims who are Hindu and Sikh, for example. That would point to it being something more related to regional origins (e.g. South Asia) than specific faith or cultural origins.

alexpolismum · 09/09/2011 14:05

Goth - I don't think we need another burka thread, we've had plenty of them, certainly I have participated in quite a few both on here, on AIBU and on In the News. Personally I think it's impossible to be a Muslim and a feminist, but then I put all religions in the same basket, so I would say the same of a Christian/ Mormon/ whatever. Obviously a lot of people disagree with me. However, I think that is a topic for another thread. Feel free to start one, I would be delighted to have a Muslim feminist give me her perspective.

JosephineB · 09/09/2011 14:11

And Muslims are a minority within the UK - should we dismiss everything they say?

GothAnneGeddes · 09/09/2011 14:17

I'm not dismissing it Josephine, just pointing out that most Muslims follow the Quran AND Sunnah, hence hadith is important, hence the widespread belief that hijab should be worn.

It's like going up to a church-going Catholic and saying they don't need to attend confession because Protestants don't.

You could have found that out yourself with a quick Google, mind.

BobBanana · 09/09/2011 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn