Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can you be a feminist housewife?

661 replies

wigglybeezer · 30/08/2011 14:00

Can you be a feminist if you don't have a career but your DH does, especially if this situation has been going on for a long time (13 years in my case)?

I don't feel downtrodden by the way, merely a bit bored and lacking in choice ATM. I earn a small amount of money, so don't have to ask DH for everything but I'm wondering if my Granny (who was a hospital consultant) was a better feminist than me. I just found a photo of her and her pals at medical school where she has noted on the back that there were 18 female medical students out of 180!

OP posts:
claig · 02/09/2011 00:03

But shouldn't we stop describing this work as 'shitwork' and recognise it for being very valuable work.

'keeping arses and noses wiped for those who can't do it for themselves'
is not 'shitwork', it is very important work. If we think it is 'shitwork' then its status will be low and its pay will be low. Let's recognise it as being valuable work, much more valuable than a council sustainability and global warming officer.

claig · 02/09/2011 00:05

Looking after vulnerable people is much more important than government 'five a day' officers.

Himalaya · 02/09/2011 00:29

SGB - I don't think that's the case. At least not amongst people I know of our generation. My experience is that people move in together, both work, both share the housework relatively equally for many years, but then 1 or two kids down the line they find themselves in a domestic set uP as traditional as their grandparents.

perfumedlife · 02/09/2011 00:36

I'm a SAHP through choice, and whilst i think it can be hard, it;s never shit work. It's more rewarding emotionally than my career ever was.

Not many lay on their death beds wishing they'd spent more time at the office. Usually the bonds of family come to mean most.

Justfeckinggoogleit · 02/09/2011 07:53

Shitwork is a phrase that makes me see red. How dare you describe what I do for my family through love as shitwork.

What do you do SGB that's so fucking fabulous you can call other women's lives shitwork? Go on, I'm all ears.

Justfeckinggoogleit · 02/09/2011 07:54

And how, how on earth can you call yourself a feminist when you talk about other women's lives in this way?

Bonsoir · 02/09/2011 09:22

I also think it is very odd to view caring for children who are not yet mature enough for self-care as "shitwork". I am not at all happy to perform routine domestic tasks for children or adults who are physically able to perform those tasks for themselves (because they have the maturity to do so and are not otherwise engaged at school or work), but it has never bothered me in the slightest to care for small children - on the contrary, because I know it is a major investment in their future to teach them that they are worth taking care of extremely well.

Justfeckinggoogleit · 02/09/2011 09:30

Still gagging to hear what wonderful work SGB does.............

scottishmummy · 02/09/2011 09:36

youre v contradictory sgb. shitwork for work some women do.reduce the
the hands on care delivered to derisory comment about snot and wiped bums - but on other hand seek a payment and status for housewives for work done? plenty drool and bum wiping in sahm role- is that shitwork too?

you harrumph about male hegemony and societal oppression getting in a socialsciencetastic froth ,to then opine about women doing shitwork. you dont see the irony of you making derogatory comments like this?youd be apoplectic if a man typed that

so called shitwork can be a career and rewarding too,and the hands on care delivered is valuable and significant to the person receiving it,and person giving it

Justfeckinggoogleit · 02/09/2011 09:51

Gives SM a standing ovation

ssd · 02/09/2011 10:08

riven is right, its all down to being able to have a choice and the thing that gives you choice is money

I don't think looking after small kids is shitwork, hard work yes, but worth it if thats the choice you make

I think one of the things we're overlooking here is how having more than one child changes everything. I can understand how having one child makes sm so sure of her choices, IME things change and shift around when you start having more than one, unless you are lucky enough to have a millionaire to live with or your doting family around the corner to help out for free when it suits.

I agree with a lot of the things you say sm, but sometimes to me, you come across as a mum of one child really strongly, really fixed ideas that have worked out for you and thats that. Mums of more than one child usually learn not to be so fixed in their thinking eg. first (or only) child slots into family life and does a lot of whats expected, never has a dummy(mummy doesn't approve), writes before going to school(mummy has time to concentrate on one), toilet trains to schedule (see writes before school). THEN second child comes along and the shit hits the fan, schedules go out the window, mummy feels bad second child starts school and can't hold PENCIL NEVER MIND WRITE, toilet trains whenever and that dummy is there till their 4.....

what I mean sm is that one child is easy, if you have it all great but sometimes circumstances force those of us who'd quite like it to be different into being precious moments mamma's that you ridicule so easily

Justfeckinggoogleit · 02/09/2011 10:10

And ssd, yep, great post.
I have four under 12.
It would be exhaustingly stressful for me to work even if I wanted to . DH is often away and pre and post school childcare is expensive, as we know.

I would have to outsource cleaning even more, ironing too.

ssd · 02/09/2011 10:13

and sm of you do have more than one child and I'm wrong then I apologise, but something tells me you'r hard line answers scream out that I'm right

anyway as you were

ssd · 02/09/2011 10:19

4 under 12, jesus wept, two's my limit!!!

I love the term outsource, I've only read it on MN!

I do outsouce jobs, I clean houses and babysit when dh comes home

maybe I'm an outsourcerer, bit like the inbetweeners without the mess and the dirty talk

FemaleYouNicked · 02/09/2011 10:30

Have two DCs and third on way, 13 months after DC2. I am also someone who thoroughly believes in the dignity of a job. and as a keen 'outsourcer' have have two people who help out at home. I work part time from home (freelance so either full on or off). Paying someone to do the work that i'm not keen on (namely cleaning and some basic nannying) and concentrating on what i do like doing keeps us happy. Those being paid to do the basic work of my family are earning money for their families, thus providing further opportunities for the next generation.

I also believe that cleaning and nanny rates are low as they are assumed to be women's work and we, as a society, don't value it.

scottishmummy · 02/09/2011 11:11

you are off the mark ssd.my beliefs arent based on number of dc i have? have more than 1- why is that relevant?the dc attend school and nursery ft

Supersunnyday · 02/09/2011 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sunshineandbooks · 02/09/2011 11:27

Being a SAHM is surely 'shitwork' for one woman while it's 'dream job' for another.

A lot depends on whether you want to be a SAHM in the first place. If you do then you're bound to enjoy it more than someone forced into it because childcare was unaffordable and you really resent the fact that you've had to give up your job.

Also support is a huge factor. Much easier to be a SAHM who really can concentrate on the DC because a lot of the domestic labour is either done by your partner or outsourced. Much more enjoyable if you have a partner/friends/relatives to give you the odd break so you can go to the Drs for a smear test without DC in tow or simply have 20mins to yourself for a hot cup of coffee. Plenty of SAHMs never get that.

Money is also another factor. Yes the best things in life are free but when it's pissing down with rain and you've already done all the baking/indoor tent/painting activities you can face because you've never had any money, it can be very very hard. If you can afford to get out and about regularly it makes a big difference.

scottishmummy · 02/09/2011 11:28

you know what ssd,i haven't made any galloping assumptions about you or your family situation. wouldn't attempt to guess you or your situation based on some words on a screen.

interesting ,how way off the mark you are though.thats the thing about trying to second guess someone else on limited info.

precious moments mamas, yes i have a lot to say about them!having being recipient of the precious moments speech and eye rolling when all my dc were in nursery ft.and the obligatory biddulph tambourine and oj references

so tell me have you experienced the precious moments speech?
were you the precious moments mama delivering the message or the recipient?

solidgoldbrass · 02/09/2011 12:02

I make no apology for referring to shitwork as shitwork. There is nothing creative or rewarding about emptying bins, scrubbing floors, cleaning out the fridge, hoovering, washing clothes, tidying up etc. It's essential that it's done, but the whole of human social progress has been about getting someone else to do it all. Hence all the utter bullshit about domestic goddesses and women's sacred duty to be homemakers, and how men 'can't see dirt' and are natuarl 'hunters' rather than domestic servants. Raising children is, of course, more rewarding but aspects of it are tedious and infuriating, and the more you are told that this is your life and you do not exist except in relation to other people, the more bored and resentful and unhappy you become. Because it's not natural for the woman to have no life outside the domestic sphere, women are curious, enquiring, imaginative, assertive, restless and strong just as much as men are.

Supersunnyday · 02/09/2011 12:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PeanutGallery · 02/09/2011 12:18

SGB, I happen to agree with you that most domestic work is tedious and unrewarding.

But I also know that there are women out there who don't find it so.

That is why they have chosen to be SAHMs and I have not.

Or do you think that no-one can possibly enjoy it, and if they do, it's only because they've been brainwashed into thinking that is their role in life and they are saints for doing it?

TheRealMBJ · 02/09/2011 12:49

Well, I have tried really hard to keep out of this thread but of course shitwork is shitwork. It is unpleasant (cleaning loos), repetitive and never ending (tidying the kitchen and washing the dishes etc) and booooooring (laundry), and often invisible cause no matter how many times you tidy the kitchen, inevitably it'll need doing again in a minute. It is essential and hard work but it can't described as rewarding or challenging. However, raising children is rewarding, seeing them grow up and achieve little milestones is fantastic and can be creative and interesting.

All work has a measure of tedium to it though, which needs to be done and is often outsourced to the lowest paid member if staff. The least valued member of staff.

ssd · 02/09/2011 13:22

ah, sm, so I'm wrong, well as I said I apologise for making assumptions, although I recognise every single poster makes assumptions based on what they've read on a screen, whilst never knowing the truth about the posters life.

as for the precious moments thing, I've done it and I've had it done to me

ssd · 02/09/2011 13:35

actually, if I'm being brutally honest I've done more of the precious moments thing rather than having it done to me

when my kids were small I had to give up workas my job involved a lot of travelling and I couldn't find childcare for the early hours/late evenings that I did regularly. Dh worked shifts and just wasn't about a lot. So I had to walk away from a job I loved and SAH, whilst working around dh's shifts doing all the outsourcing crap mentioned above for women like me whose husbands earned more and so could afford the cleaner/babysitter(me). Whilst I enjoyed being at home with the kids I hated the drudgery (shitwork!) involved and we have no family nearby so never got a break. I did envy the mums I know who went out to work and probably raised my precious moments eyes at some of them, but mainly I was jealous because they had mums/MIL's who came and helped them work around their families live whilst I had no help and couldn't work due to no available childcare.

Thats why posts like the above

"SGB, I happen to agree with you that most domestic work is tedious and unrewarding.

But I also know that there are women out there who don't find it so.

That is why they have chosen to be SAHMs and I have not."

bug the life out of me. So many women like me didn't have the effin choice, it was forced on them by circumstances they couldn't change, so they spent a lot of time at home trying to find meaning in doing the washing and wiping noses but wishing things could be different.

As I said here , choice takes money and without money (to pay for childcare/to outsource your cleaning and crap you don't want to do but will pay someone else to do), you are up shit creek without a paddle.