Women and traditional dress.

[LostInTheWoods]

This is something I've noticed over the years.

In many cultures it appears to be more likely that women wear traditional dress than men. I'm thinking about sarees, salwar kameez, kimonos, african-style dresses and head-dresses and probably others I haven't seen. You are much less likely to see men wearing their equivalent traditional outfits.

Why is this?

That is not just a Western thing though is it? Not just an atheist thing either. The beauty ideal touches most of us, whether we diet, dye our hair, botox or whatever and the young generation of men are not so different.

The willingness and 'need' of some women to change how they look is shocking, having spent time in Thailand with women with huge breasts, smooth faces and wrinkled necks!!

Women in Thailand with huge breasts???? Even on soi cowboy the fake breasts are small. Thai women don't really go in for huge fake boobs, and I find it impossible to tell their ages, their skin stays smooth until relative old age. You must have been in a Thailand in a parallel universe to the one I live in.

Unless of course you mean the western women who come here for surgery. Even then, I don't see much huge fake boobness going on. You have to travel California for that.

Fwiw, I like wearing traditional dress for formal special occasions. Beautiful Indian clothing sits in my wardrobe alongside my Armani and Temperley. I see no contradiction in that, merely an expression of individuality.

GothAnne, of course we can't cover every type of traditional clothing, it's a vast topic but there are lots of people on this thread with experience of a variety of different traditions and it's interesting to talk about the different issues that women of different cultures face. They are not all the same, but there are certainly themes.

Posie, your posts would come across as less islamaphobic if you were able to provide a critique of the dress required of women by other religions. The fact that muslim women across the world are all expected to adhere to different clothing traditions surely tells you it is more culture than religion that is to blame.

TPP, You just said it...."a true dislike for things that are a real threat". You feel 'really' threatened. Not sure what you see as a threat...all religions or mainly islam as you have detailed above. You say you hate the faith, not the women. But as a muslim woman, you cannot separate me from my faith. You cannot say to me that i don't hate you but I hate your faith because then I will ask you that what has my faith done to you? surely it's an individual that you have an issue with?

I must admit, you seem ill-informed by what the religion stipulates and what culture stipulates as you have mixed up FGM with Islam. And what's the disability thing all about!

Also, I don't believe that you do still see the woman despite her 'religious bondage'. You do not seem to have a clue about the real worries of an oppressed woman but you have decided that religion - not religion, specifically islam is to be blamed for all her worries.

Anyway, this whole thing is going way off the topic!
You are talking of free choice, then try to wear a scarf (as a choice and experiment :) ) and see how automatically, you will be seen as oppressed - see how many people will try to control you and tell you to take it off because you are being controlled! Many will be so under the spell of their own culture, that they cannot even see that they are infringing on your right to wear what you want to wear. You speak of islam imposing control, see how much pressure you will be under to take it off. See how many looks of disapproval you will get. And all this because you tried to make a free choice.

What you wear will always be influenced by your own experiences,values, culture and expectations. But to blame all religions for all that is bad, is a poor emotive argument.

FGM is practised by many people, some of which claim it is part of Islam...now you and I know that it is not true, but Islam as a religion is used to force these women to have it. And I do separate the human from religion because I don't believe there is a God. Your beliefs cannot influence how I see you, only how you see yourself.

And I have a pretty dim view of all religion, they are all rubbish for women.

most people commenting here have direct experience of only a few different types at best, hence it just becomes another airing of personally held stereotypes. I don't understand this perspective, if most here only know a few types of cultures/clothing then I would imagine they knew them well enough to comment with some understanding. I am not sure why this board space that has so much respect for women's voices and makes room to make all sorts often silenced wants to label 'most' posters as unable to see beyond stereotype. I can't see that there is a culture quota or some points score system we have to pass before being able to make observations.

Eldritch... and where did I say I only had the 'ethnics' (ffs) in mind? I have worked with a couple of groups whose women were very oppressed, in fact I am related to the first group and they are all white. You see a preoccupation with seeing the West as the cultural norm when I wrote
'I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...'
I can clarify if it helps, the women I have met without basic rights (and I will not accept that the right to live without violence, female circumcision, sexual threat, forced marriage, enforced dress codes, reduced access to health care, family plannig etc. are values that are only valid to a Western perspective) live in areas that share an overwhelmingly homogenous religious and cultural identity. It is the combination of the male spouse and wider community that is so toxic and effective in policing these girls and women. I ahve been referring to the Muslim group because we were talking about clothing and the experiences of these women are relevant.

I am amazed that I can write about women living without these human rights in the Uk and you think the big issue is my Westerncentric gaze. Whilst we may all belong to a specific group the comparison is rather like saying that we all have enforced dress codes. There are some of us who change our groups without fear or threat of consequence and change our wardrobe according to our circumstances and their our others who face huge threat for trying to change either.

full of typos sorry, particularly glaring is the 'there are' needed in the last sentence...

Eldritch... and where did I say I only had the 'ethnics' (ffs) in mind

That's how it read to me, so that is how I responded. And 'ethnics', a term I loathe, was used ironically.

you think the big issue is my Westerncentric gaze

No it is not the big issue, nor does my brief post in any way imply that it is. I simply felt there was an inference or implication in the words you used that merited a challenge.

and I will not accept that the right to live without violence, female circumcision, sexual threat, forced marriage, enforced dress codes, reduced access to health care, family planning etc. are values that are only valid to a Western perspective

Well, who says they are? Not me, certainly.

Yes Eldritch I did hear the irony but trying to draw attention to my presumed racism whilst using terms often used as an insult isn't an approach I like. I am frequently enraged by the casual dismissal of the women I work with by terms like the one you used ironically and equally enraged by the tendency of others to refuse to hear the women themselves because they are too busy listening to the dominant (male) community voices telling them its cultural/religious and they have no right to comment.

Corvax - poverty is an issue, here where I am too where people now have to travel further on worse bus routes for hospital health care but that isn't really what I meant. I work with women often not allowed to access health care with any regularity. Our service has changed to offer more health care in ways that make it more possible that these women can attend. But I have moved somewhat away from the OP I see...

OK, 'presumed racism' is really over-egging it now. You've got vertigo from standing on that soapbox for so long.

Western is 'the norm' in the West......

Cultural relativism is a piss poor concoction to excuse all types of crap all over the world. And if you read the thread you'd have an idea what 'Western' means in this context.

Racism.....meaning hatred of races?

Eldritch, yup if you think a person is thinking in terms of 'the ethnics' as a homogenous group then that would imply that they are somewhat racist. But don't let the first mis-reading of what I wrote inhibit you from further judgement - oh I see it didn't.

Now where was I on the feminist board discussing women and issues I care about - not in need of your support or denigration thanks.

Whatevs, dear.

Thank you MPIT.

Actually my actual concern is far reaching, unfortunately the debate was stifled by calls to White girls are trash....yawn. Why woman have to be becons of cultural over their male counter parts is up for debate namechanger if you fancy discussing it. Or does cultural relativism stretch to forcing a woman to bandage her feet, paint her face white, wear heavy headwear?

Too much handringing about religion here and yet prejudice and woeful lies about men, white men, is bang on. Do we just slag ofsome white women now and all white men in feminism?

Ever worn a japanese wig?

I have and Chinese traditional wear, it's heavy and uncomfortable.