Women and traditional dress.

[LostInTheWoods]

This is something I've noticed over the years.

In many cultures it appears to be more likely that women wear traditional dress than men. I'm thinking about sarees, salwar kameez, kimonos, african-style dresses and head-dresses and probably others I haven't seen. You are much less likely to see men wearing their equivalent traditional outfits.

Why is this?

In my experience, in West Africa men wear their traditional dress a lot, including in the workplace, as do women. Over here, most men would not be permitted to wear their traditional dress at work (my father wasn't). They are either forced to conform to the suit dress code or perceive that wearing traditional dress and not the suit connotes lower status, so chooose not to (my West African City worker ex was in this camp. He knew how to play the game in the office with chalk stripe suits, red braces etc. Out of work it was traditional shirts over jeans).

Things tend to be more fluid for women, and traditional West African dress for women is very smart-often more formal than the Western dress their colleagues wear. I can say that in my workplace, I would get away with a sombre version of West African dress in the summer (and have occasionally worn it) whereas a man wouldn't.

I used to wince watching The Appentice and seeing the sky high heels all the women seemed to wear while the men wore nice comfy flats and that's work wear, not Saturday night stuff. Whoever is responsible for the return of the stilletto needs a slap.

Where I am it is for many of the Muslim women true that if they wore western clothing their status, religious and cultural obedience would be questioned. Their husbands also won't let them.

I have no intrinsic problem with any outfit, I know some women are empowered by choosing traditional outfits but the women I know who have to wear traditional coverings h

Have husbands who can wear what they want because they have more freedom.

It makes me cynical and whilst I woukd defend anyone's choice to wear what they want I can't really see how you can feel free wearing outfits many are compelled to wear. It seems a visible sign of the inequality some of these women live with. It is probably relevant that the area is economically deprived.

I am sure there are some Muslim women who are influenced by their husbands but it is simply not true of many Msulim women, are we saying that Muslim women don't have a voice now? Of course they do, for many it is a personal choice to cover up, not because of their husbands but because that is what they feel comfortable with and their personal faith.
I have a sister who converted and married a Jweish man and now lives in Israel. Ok, she does cover up and wear a head covering but that certainly is not what her husband tells her to do, it is her choice to do it.
It used to be (and still in is many countries) that christian women cover up too in the same way. In some African countries christian women almost always wear a head covering to church, that is because of what they believe that the book teaches them.

I get the impression from this thread that people are saying that all these poor women of Muslim,Jewish or other faiths are so oppressed by their husbands they have to dress how the husband wants them to - not true. In fact most of them are intelligent,focused and confident women who believe in themselves and their choice to be different.

...and like curry said above, why are men restricted to wearing a suit and tie here in the west while women can get away with much more, thats not fair either really is it?!

When I see a Muslim women buying Aspinal and LV handbags in Harrods or wearing Burberry hijabs I find it hard to reconcile the idea that they are not also heavily influenced by consumerism and, supposed, Western fashion. Equally a hijab seems, for some, code for I'm a good Muslim if I wear this and can get away with crippling heels, tightest jeans and a face caked in make up. To equate traditional dress as more free than Western objectification is just wrong. Traditional as well as the style that most Western women wear is no more or less objectifying.

And when a uniform is dictated to mean more than 'clothes' it is not free choice, somewhere along the way a man penned what God wanted and seemingly God was always kinder to men and thought that women, just by existing, were temptation to all things wrong and sexual.

[wonders how anyone believes such a loving God hates women so]

I agree with Posie in that focusing on Western dress in a thread specifically about traditional dress is derailing, but I can see why the temptation arises. If you aren't from an ethnic minority, you may not know enough to comment or may not feel it is your place to criticise other cultures. If you are from an ethnic minority, it is much easier to to focus on the issues with Western dress than that which is traditional to your background.

The truth is that traditional costumes suffer from many of the same issues as lot of modern Western clothing. They can be impractical and restrictive. They can expose parts of your body that you'd rather other people didn't see. (This is certainly the case with traditional Indian dress when the midriff is exposed and it's a part of the body most women would rather cover up.) It is subject to fashion and women end up spending a lot more money on clothes than men who usually have plainer, simpler outfits.

I don't think that in the vast majority of cases women are forced to wear traditional clothes by the husbands btw. But I do think that there is more general societal pressure for women to conform. Even in my 30s I have frequent arguments with my mum because I refuse to dress "suitably". Generally it is because I refuse to wear heavy jewellry and no Indian outfit is complete unless accessorised by a pound of gold. The reason why she makes such a fuss is because when I don't conform, other people comment, so in my experience the pressure does exist.

Classic case in point at the beach the other day. A large mixed group sitting and eating together, the men in swimming shorts, the boys in swimming shorts. The girls and the women sitting on the green wearing robe type clothes and veils.

It made me so angry for these little girls to be missing out on a fun activity because of some made up religious lunacy from donkeys years ago.

Bear in mind that the conventional business suit is, in effect, British (or English) traditional dress. It has become so universal we don't see it as such, but one could argue British men are generally expected to wear their traditional dress a lot of the time.

Corvax, and Eldritch, I think your points are important. I feel uneasy about discussing the attire of "other cultures" outside the context of the attire of our "mainstream culture," because I think there are "rules," but because they are part of the dominant culture, we just take these for granted as "normal." Also, I'm still not entirely clear where variations within "British" culture fall. Are kilts "mainstream" because they are common, acceptable attire for Scottish men in Scotland, or is that considered an "other culture" in the context of the UK as a while.

The nub here I think is how do we determine whether what women wear in any culture is something that is genuinely and freely chosen and not something they adopt as the result of direct pressure (e.g. husband or boyfriend, legal requirements, religious diktat, etc.) or indirect pressure (e.g. peer pressure, negative consequences of not conforming, 24/7 marketing, etc.)

I think more often, we question whether the woman wearing the Burberry hijab, the African head wrap, the Sephardic Jewish scarf or the Greek widow's black outfit is being "forced" to do this by her husband/father/son rather than accepting that this could be an informed choice of attire on her part.

Similarly, we may be more likely to accept the word of a young woman in 5 inch heels, daisy duke shorts and a tight, low cut blouse when she says she feels confident and empowered when she dresses this way - that it's her choice.

It gets complicated when we start to unpick the components of "choice" and the degree to which women in any culture actually have free, fully informed choice and agency within their lives.

I'm reminded of this cartoon Everything Covered/Nothing Covered But Her Eyes.

Muslim women just cannot win with you, can they Posie?

If they wear a black abaya that's bad, if they wear a hijab plus western clothes, that's bad too.

And mentioning Western women's dress is not derailing, merely pointing out that our society has certain dress codes too, rather then just othering any woman who doesn't wear Western dress.

Unless you just want this thread to be about "Those poor oppressed foreign women in their funny clothes, why can't they be enlightened and clever like meeeeeeeeeeee".

And whilst our preoccupation with heels or not, above the knee or below remains unresolved we have no voice in regard to the dress of other women from other cultures? Really? That will be bad news to many of the women I know. Many of them want change especially for their daughters. It's not at all about poor oppressed women in funny clothes nor about some Muslim women being influenced by their husbands. It is women forced to wear clothing for the rest of their lives, their daughters treated the same and the clothes represent just some of the ways these specific women have reduced rights and self autonomy.

If we don't look anywhere else before putting our own house in order in regard to feminist issues then we will be waiting a long time to have a voice and all that time the established male voices will be heard. It isn't cultural imperialism to insist on some absolutes and one of these is that women are free to choose their clothes (or to choose their influences at least) and have self determinism over partner, pregnancies, jobs, education, health etc. I never really thought this was an issue with a particular religion or community group when I largely knew professionals, I was naive.

GAG....Western attire is not a uniform unless clothing is uniform. There is not one group is there. I don't wear similar clothing to my neighbour or the woman down my street, it is not limited at all. I can wear what I like. I can wear a bikini, one onesy, trousers, skirts, anything I damn well please. It doesn't make me any more or less British.

You're objection to anything I say about any religious woman makes you look, frankly odd. This is about control of women by men, afterall men made up the rules in the first place.

I just get a bit bored when people talk about Western women as if we all dress in revealing clothes, when this simply isn't the case for most of us.

Crepes... I agree totally. Whether everyone likes it or not a Western woman has far more autonomy over her own life than most cultures.

it is difficult to criticise another culture without worrying that it is racism isn't it?

i know when i was doing my postgrad though there were about 20 students either from pakistan or of pakistani origin and the men all wore western clothing while the women all wore traditional gowns/head scarves. this was backed up by a view (openly expressed by the men) that it was fine for them to do whatever but not for the women, and that they would go out with/have sex with white women for now but when it came time to settle down they would get their parents to find them a suitable woman.

whereas my H's family are from africa (don't want to specify country) and, for example, at any weddings/funerals i've been at here where you are seeing a large group from the same original country the wearing of traditional dress has been pretty much even between the men and the women.

Skrumle......yes the 'racism' hand ringing is rather boring.

in the country they come from the men and the women tend to only wear traditional clothing for "events" - weddings and funerals but also mass, dinner out, etc. in africa i would say it stays even most of the time - whether day to day or event.

similar here but in the UK i would say there is a slight tendency for women to wear it more often than men (e.g. going out for dinner in a posh restaurant) but i think that is more to do with the acceptability of men wearing robes?

I think it's a real shame that it's so dificult to discuss these things without cries of "racisim" or "western women dress like prostitutes" or "Muslim women are all opressed" always cropping up. Surely we can be more objective than that? Need it be so polarised and emotive?

I am new to mumsnet, thought I would add a comment. I agree that we shouldn't shout all Muslim women are oppressed just as we shouldn't shout all western women are hookers. Massive generalisation to both categories wouldn't you say. Also, if you put me in the Pakistani Muslim slot, then would you say that I am not western despite having been born and raised in England? I have been on both sides of the spectrum where I used to dress in the complete western attire without looking like a hooker just as I can now dress in a complete muslim attire without looking oppressed. In fact, nowadays I tend to do both at the same time! The truth is, I love western fashion for daily wear and I adore Pakistani fashion especially for occasion wear and I 'customise' my wardrobe to deliver what I want it to deliver and not what any man, Asian woman, western woman wants me to wear or not wear. When I want to wear something that would be classed as not so modest then I still wear it but then I wear either a long western coat over it or an ornate beautiful Islamic long robe over it when I go outside along with a scarf and hey presto, it becomes Islamic wear! Just because you cannot see what I am wearing underneath should not give anyone a right to judge how oppressed or how liberated I am. Just to add, I don't allow my husband to wear the traditional Pakistani or Arab dress apart from on formal occasions. I prefer him in jeans. Does that mean he is totally oppressed - by a Muslim woman - in a hijab? :)