Women and traditional dress.

[LostInTheWoods]

This is something I've noticed over the years.

In many cultures it appears to be more likely that women wear traditional dress than men. I'm thinking about sarees, salwar kameez, kimonos, african-style dresses and head-dresses and probably others I haven't seen. You are much less likely to see men wearing their equivalent traditional outfits.

Why is this?

Fab contribution BuzNuz.

This thread reminded me of this video.

I hope you haven't read my contributions as saying that as a Muslim you are oppressed. I am speaking only about the specific group I work with. You choose what you wear most of them don't have that choice. I do see them as oppressed, they tell me they see themselves that way too. I am appalled at the inequality of their lives and haven't judged this from their clothing initially at all. I look at their daughters and feel angry that they will not get the same opportunities as their sons.

Hi crepesagogo, no I wasnt referring to any contributions in particular, just making my own point :) I don't deny what you say and what you have observed, but I just want to point out that they are not oppressed because they are Muslim or because they have an eastern culture. Because in that case, I also have those but am not in the oppressed category. What I am trying to say is that there are other factors at play. Culture probably plays some role in it but not the defining role if you see what I mean. There are several other factors contributing. Let me give another example...statistics show that 1 domestic violence incident is reported every minute. Now does this show that England has a culture of this? The answer is no, culture is not to blame. There are other factors involved. In my opinion, education is key.

Crikri, that was a brill video. I so agree with the sentiments. :)

But that is too simplistic buznuz as their Muslim doesn't have to be your Muslim...there is no religion not subject to differing interpretations.

If they were not Muslim then the explicit reasons given for their prescribed clothing etc would not apply. They would be less repressed. The faith I was brought up within is similarly open to differing interpretations and often presented in forms that were hostile to women. It may be right but it is also too easy to say that the true faith is not oppressive, it has been shaped by years of patriarchal governance that has benefited make followers at the expense of women.

Crepesagogo, I'm a little confused by what you mean by islamic clothing. yes, there are many differing interpretations to faith, but a whole lot of cultures do get mixed up with it and what results is a confused mish mash. I can still categorically say that religion (any faith) is not restrictive, it's how it is applied that can make all the difference. Religions can provide guidelines. Traditional dresses (from all differing cultures) can be islamic too (or not), you do not have to be in a burqa only for it to qualify as an islamic dress, a long maxi can also do the job :)

Corvax, my sentiments exactly - just to echo what you are saying - that is why education is SO important in order for women especially to become empowered. Wearing or not wearing traditional/non-traditional clothes will not solve the problem.

I'm surprised by this thread to be honest. Of course clothing can be oppressive. Of course we all think that we make a free choice about what we wear, but how "free" can that choice be when we all know that there are social costs if we do not conform? Of course if this debate were about make up and high heels in Western culture anyone spouting these sorts of arguments would be pulled up on it.

Buz I didn't say Islamic but prescribed ... deliberately because I don't for a minute think there is a universally Islamic or otherwise set of garments.

The cartoon above is good but not what I am talking about...either woman if dressed that way because her husband enforces the outfit and will never allow change has a problem. I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...not necedsarily Muslim but there are many Muslim women oppressed in this way at the minute.

Education...if course, but that is something these women and girls get little of and don't get to do on their terms.

When France legislated on clothing I thought they were wrong and probably couldn't separate it entirely from having personally been amazed at the levels of racism I have met there...felt like an extension of this. I knew women here who woukd have been affected if they lived there and they said they just would have been allowed out even less than they were. Hideous all round and in need of much greater scrutiny and dialogue.

Of course the clothing itself can be oppressive. If you're an Afgani woman wrapped in a burka who can see where she is going and is constantly tripping up as she walks, the clothing is itself oppressive (as well as the culture that forces you to wear it). That's not to say all traditional clothing is bad or oppressive, but some is and why would we be ignoring that?

The conversation has to centre on the differences between men and women in different cultures, just as it would do when we are talking about Western clothing.

Why are women wearing traditional clothes more than men, both in their home countries and in Britain? I think a big reason is that women are expected to maintain their traditions in a way that men are not. Someone also mentioned the fact that women are seen as ornamental and that is probably true.

Also we need to talk about the differences between men and women's dress. Why are women meant to cover up more than men in some cultures? Why are their clothes generally more decorative and less practical? Why are women expected to spend more money on their clothes and take more interest in their personal appearance?

What cultures don't suffer from these issues? Why?

There's lot of interesting debate to be had, but the attitudes of let's not talk about this because it is sensitive and of course women from ethnic minorities have free choice (when we wouldn't claim the same was true of Western women) are a bit lame.

Posie - I don't care if you think I'm odd. You bash Muslim women on a weekly basis here, you're the one with the negative fixation, not me.

The problem Karma is that there are a vast number of cultures and clothing on the planet, most people commenting here have direct experience of only a few different types at best, hence it just becomes another airing of personally held stereotypes. I doubt, however interesting it would be, that we're going to have a conversation about Inuit forms of dress are we? While it's great that people have mentioned West African and Indian forms of dress, too often these threads turn into the likes of Posie airing her already well aired hatreds of Clothes Sometimes Worn By Muslim Women.

I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...

We're all part of a specific religion (or non-religion, e.g. Western secularism) and culture. All of us. Not just the 'ethnics'. Smacks of seeing Western Europe/Anglo-Saxon culture as the norm and everyone else as other.

It's Islam I loathe, not Muslim women.

No, I fully see the woman before Islam because I am not religious. I see the bondage of religion but still see the woman, it's quite easy without the blinkers of religion.

Islamophobia.... I don't get the term really. I abhor the control of millions, I abhor the foul treatment of women by this religion which separates and coagulates dependent on what the issue is, I abhor the homophobia, the FGM, and yet I'm still supposed to have respect for this religion? I know the religion shuns people with disabilities too..... Phobia is something I associate with irrational fear not a true dislike for things that are a real threat.

To be fair, my views on traditional dress were not about Islam any more than any other, I should have ignored GAG...she's a PITA.

And I'm an anti theist, so pretty much loathe all all organised religion.

But Religious attire does seem to have the ability for long tradition as it is less likely to have changed and had people educated enough to write it down. It can also be much more sewn, pardon the pun, into it's meaning. Although Japanese dress and Chinese foot binding for example is as steeped in the history of women as objects as many religions, if not longer.