"No thanks, I've got a boyfriend"... part deux

[Anniegetyourgun]

Here y'go, nice clean thread, please wipe your feet before trampling all over it.

There is a lot to be said in trusting the first impression you get of someone. Of the top of my head two examples spring to mind of times when my first instinct was that a man was a complete prick, but I was convinced to push those thoughts to one side and to become 'friends'. In both instances my instincts were proven right within a year.

In my experience, it is rare that someone (male or female) will behave badly as a complete one-off. As is so often said on the relationship boards, if someone tells or shows you what sort person they are, take them seriously.

Women are socialised to value group cohesiveness and to be inclusive in their relationships. Men are never called 'bitchy' for excluding people from their social circle.

I know there are those of you who would disagree but I will warn any woman to be careful if they are alone with a man who isn't related - whether he is a friend, colleague or date. You are not 'asking for it' by being alone with a man - but you are very vulnerable if he has bad intentions.
One man I was dating invited me to watch a DVD - I was naive & didn't expect him to try it on as I honestly hadn't given those signals. I don't want to go into detail but it was a bad experience & I was lucky I didn't get seriously hurt. Another time I'd been out with a group of female & male friends (all in our early 20s) - they ended up sleeping in my flat, then one of my male friends who was in my bed tried it on - I had to push him out as he was drunk & wouldn't stop - but I was too embarrassed to tell anyone else. I hadn't realised that he fancied me.
The worst time was when I went to see a colleague I'd known for a few months. He invited me for coffee & a chat. No-one else knew where I was. I was sat there in my coat still, finishing my coffee & had just enjoyed a good conversation. I told him I needed to go home, & he stood up, saying, 'the doors are locked so you can't leave'. He changed into something I didn't recognise & it was so scary - I managed to get away - I should have told the police but there was no point. I told a friend who knew him but she didn't believe me as he honestly was a different person at work. My mum blamed me, saying I that any woman who goes to a man's home should know what to expect.

After these experiences & hearing about similar experiences my sister & some friends have had - I really do warn other women to just be careful.

Wamster I'm now genuinely confused. If I was 'lucky' with the internet guy, then there is an inherent risk with interacting with men? And therefore women have to act as risk assessors? I totally agree that that is the case in many contexts - but I don't think that the onus should be on the woman alone. I think men should take responsibility for not imitating rapist behaviour.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I think you were urging for women not to judge men too harshly on first meetings. So when do we judge them? Genuine question. If internet guy could have been pretending, and so he shouldn't have stayed, but another pushy guy shoudn't be judged too harshly, then I'm a bit confused.

Krikri... your friend should definitely have strong words with this guy and threaten reporting him. This will undoubtedly be against any reasonable place of work's code of conduct and she should not have to dread going into work.

Oh, I wouldn't disagree with that, Kallista. It's kind of like crossing the road. If you just stroll across at the lights and a vehicle hits you, it's the driver's fault for not stopping, not yours for not looking - but nevertheless you could have avoided an accident by not trusting the buggers.

Very true!

If anyone is being 'very careful' with their male friends then it isn't much of a friendship is it?

I go back to a my point in the last thread. If I gave you some anecdotes of black men being muggers and then warned you all to be very careful in the presence of black men, I should hope that you would feel that something might be wrong with this. Whilst I'm not querying the very good intentions of Kallista's 'safety first' point - or indeed the wealth of evidence of such situations - no one seems troubled by it.

Isn't it a question of probabilities jenny?

Despite living in London, only very few of my friends have been mugged or assaulted by a black person. Most people, applying intelligence and reason to seeing a group of young black youths on the corner of the street would remind themselves that the probability of being mugged by them is quite small.

However, the majority of my female friends have, at some point or several points in their lives been made to feel uncomfortable, upset or frightened by men (of every colour) infringing their personal boundaries or acting in an entitled way.

If we lived in a society where young black men were encouraged to demonstrate entitled behaviour and go around mugging people with impunity, it might be a more useful comparator.

SAF I'm clearly not referring to those of you who said that then am I? Of course I see the difference, but Kallisa said 'all men who are not relatives' and not 'any men who won't take no for an answer' as you have it in your scenario... Different things!

It depends on the criteria thistledew - if you're saying 'made to feel uncomfortable' then the probability will indeed be higher than assaulted.

I would also suggest that your idea that society teaches men to feel entitled is too broad a statement. Who are these teachers to whom you refer? I'm on record as hating Zoo and Nuts for this very reason, btw, but I think this is part of how we write some young working class men off as being incapable of anything beyond football, beer and oggling women. I'm not sure this is true of men as a whole, though.

One thing that has come out of this thread is the idea that women are entitled to treat men who cross verbal boundaries as if they are likely to cross physical ones.

With this in mind, I am going to do a complete U turn and say the analogy with feelings of anxiety about being mugged by young black men is a very useful one.

But you have to tweak it a little bit to represent the gendered violence and harassment that women get from men in general.

So at least once a week, a young black man will do one of the following to you:

Lightly slap you across the face- but not beat you up;
Have a good look inside your handbag- he's only looking, not taking, what harm does it do?;
Lean out of a van window and yell "I'm going to steal your iPod"- his mates all think this is a real laugh and some of your friends tell you that you should lighten up and be pleased that he wants to steal your iPod. If you knew him, you might well give him one for his birthday;
A group of them might repeatedly take your mug, stapler and other personal items from your desk at work- have you no sense of humour, they're only having a laugh;
You or at least one of your friends got mugged by a young black man who they had known as a friend for a while- but you/she did invite him in for coffee after he walked you/her home from that party, so what do you expect.

But all those men apart from the last one are not actually muggers, and will never mug you, you know?

You might think that you would have good reason not to trust young, black men if they behaved in such a way. You count yourself lucky that you know enough of the good ones well so that you can trust they would never do any of these things, but sadly, some you thought you knew well might still do look at maps to see where the best place to go mugging is. Not that they would ever go, you understand.

Anyone else feel more outraged at the thought of such a blatant assault on our physical property than we do at assaults on our physical integrity?

At least once a week you or one of your friends is sexually assaulted by a friend that you invited into your house? I'd suggest you move areas.

A clever reworking but actually the eyeing up the handbag and the leaning out of the van and thinking it's funny are the only ones that actually work. Again though, you are changing the scenario into one where an actual element of dodgy behaviour has taken place, whereas Kallista's point is that you should be very careful with all men regardless of behaviour.

I've never said that it is excusable to behave in the way described in the OP.

I will add one more example, if the others are too hard to get.

A young black man comes up to you in a bar and says:

"Give me your iPod"
"Go on, you know you want to give me your iPod"
"Don't tell me to go away, I know you want to give me your iPod"
"You would like it if you give me your iPod, the feeling of generosity is really great"
"You are missing out not giving me your iPod"
"If we were good friends you would want to give me your iPod"
"You are such a stuck up bitch, it's only an iPod. Who do you think you are keeping it to yourself".

They're not too hard to get, they don't work Quite funny though, s'pose.

Yes, men who do this are bad and arrogant people. I think we are all agreed on this aren't we? (Ok, maybe not you Warmster )

No, you just don't get them .

Slap across the face = minor version of violence prior to mugging = grope of breasts or bum.
Stealing stuff at work = sexual harassment at work. I suppose you could tone it down to only talking about taking your stuff.

And if you don't get the reference to being mugged by the friend who walked you home, then I really am wasting my time trying to explain .

Also- I think my point is made that you would say that these are examples of 'actual' abuse, but the things to which I am making the analogy are not.

I think thistledew's analogies are quite reasonable.

However I also think that Jenny's point is correct about Kallista's post. The idea that women should be wary of any man who isn't related - is also wrong.

Kallista I am so sorry that you have had those terrifying experiences. But you can't let it colour your view of all men.

I have had some bad experiences too.. But I spent a large part of my youth in situations where men could have "taken advantage" or whatever and 99% of them didn't. IME the vast majority of men are decent. Some are not. Basing your life as if they are all like that 1% (5%?) of bastards will mean that you don't get to enjoy the genuine friendship of the majority of men who are reasonable and kind.

SO I kind of agree with everyone... (its late)

sorry wams

Kallista sorry that came out harsher than I meant. Of course your experiences will colour your views. But honestly most men are not like that.

Sorry for sounding so insensitive.

Yes Thistledew... thank you The reason I say they don't work is because the vast majority of women do not have their bums and boobs groped on a weekly basis. Nor do they recieve sexual harrassment (that as is as stressful as having personal items repeatedly hidden) on a weekly basis. To say that they do and that I am naive will be a natural comeback, I'm sure, but is disingenuous.

Besides which, this still suggests bad behaviour and, as SQ has kindly picked up, I am not talking about people behaving badly whom we all agree are knobs.

I dunno Jenny, I encountered this type of behaviour when I was younger and I went out a lot, and someone not taking no for an answer and buggering off when I asked them to happened about weekly, I would say. Sometimes more than once in one night.

I think that it is worse when you are young. And worse (as a matter of basic maths) if you go out an awful lot.

People's experiences are different, is the point. Everyone's experiences are true and factual of themselves, and will have formed their views. Wamster has never had a problem. Great. Kallista has had a lot and it has understandably made her less relaxed.Fine. Both are true. However Wamster's experience should be the one for all, meanwhile too many women and girls end up in situations like Kallista. That is the point of what we are discussing here. the prevalence differs, depending on lots of factors, but persistent men are a fact of life generally, and what can we do about that is a good question. I want to aim for a point where most women can say "this doesn't sound familiar at all" and away from a point where women say don't be alone with men who arent family

I can see your confusion jenny. You thought I said that my list of thing would all happen once a week, whereas I said that one of the things from the list would happen once a week.

I was not setting out an exact science, and it would still be extreme if it happened once a month, but sadly I have to say that it is rare that a week goes by when I don't at least get one of those leery, undressing you stares.

I'm not confused thank you . Yes, leery stares abound, but light slaps around the face? No, just too much... Oh, in certain clubs, groping goes on for sure. But I thought we were talking more generally? Dear old Orangehat used to berate me for talking about clubs and meat-markets...

All clubs have certain personas though, don't they, and there are plenty of women who willingly frequent the meat-markets and would be disappointed if they didn't get attention - much as that might make the rest of us cringe.

You put this into the office though Thistle and that's why it didn't work. When did you genuinely hear of someone getting their boobs groped in the office (without dire consequences)?

Night all!