"No thanks, I've got a boyfriend"... part deux

[Anniegetyourgun]

Here y'go, nice clean thread, please wipe your feet before trampling all over it.

swallowedafly, I don't actually care if people think I am a misogynist troll- but I do find it unacceptable (as do mn) when people toss the 'troll' word about and I found what I perceived to be the blatant bullying that followed as bad as you claim to find some men who persist with women. I see no difference in this bullying of me and their behaviour.

I also don't feel bad that severin agrees with me (he does on certain issues) He may be a misogynist troll, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day (to quote 'I' in Withnail).

We do differ; he thinks that insults should be accepted in part of life, I don't. Insults should be challenged.

But you actually will not accept that I am anti-abuse of women, anti-threats, anti-rape and that in real life, I do get involved if I see a woman being sworn at by a man in an aggressive fashion. I do go over and ask if she is OK. I

But, I'm sensible about it, you see, if all the idiot is doing is persistently asking her for a drink but NOT being aggressive or threatening, or touching her a la Jeremy irons, I don't get involved.

I know what you mean Victor! My youth was all about rock and goth clubs and the men there respected the women completely - it's a highly-prized part of belonging to that group/sub-culture, and women could wear as little as they want. If only the rest of society acted like that.

I still only go to clubs that are 'alternative' in some way - the scene has split in many directions - and still women get treated with proper respect - unless some 'lads' manage to get in.

Well, then I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that I'm not inclined to make allowances for men who don't respect women. Guys in rock clubs didn't spring from a vacuum, and they're not magically different to their peers in mainstream clubs; they choose not to act that way. They choose to affiliate themselves with a subculture that - although the lyrics can be misogynistic, just like music of every other genre - generally respects women's bodily autonomy.

If they can do it then so can everyone else.

I agree - men need education, as I've said. My ex strongly believes this, and I agree with his methodology and advice. For some men it's an instinctive respect, great. For others, possibly the most effective first part of their education is that hassling women who are not interested - who haven't even given you a signal - is NOT effective.

And the thing is, those men, who were respectful of women, were fine with gay people - got hot girlfriends! Like me! While the 'lads' thought they were gay! They could be very 'manly' too, in their way. It can work, the lad culture just don't get it.

I doubt if Jeremy Irons is part of the 'puking in gutters culture'.

I wonder how many of us on this board did grow up in un-mainstream culture, which shaped our views of interaction between men and women. Although I was certainly feminist from a young age, it wasn't until I was a lot older than I realised I was in anything like a minority.

oh hi, annie, yes you misunderstood. I'm saying I don't know why certain women do get hit on more than others. I mean I've seen women who are pretty & wearing tiny dresses not get bothered at all in the same bar as women dressed the same who are getting hit on a lot.

And I go wherever I like, so do my friends but some of us don't get hit on while others get hit on all the time (see above). Ironically it's the women I'm with who don't want to be chatted up who seem to get bothered the most.
Why is that?

Yes I grew up in mainstream culture. Have only in last couple of weeks started reading the feminist board. I'm so used to accepting certain (bad) behaviour off men as are most women I know.
I find it a bit difficult to understand some of the terms etc used on the threads - but then this is true of Mumsnet in general as in some posters are very educated & I get lost reading their posts.

I do find it hard to articulate what I'm trying to say in my posts. And I'm far more literate than most women I mix with who never even read newspapers.

How strange I was also an "alternative" person - first indie/metal/goth and later dance clubs at the druggier end of the scale (rather than the posing end). Interestingly there was a big crossover in the people who went to certain dance clubs and certain indie/metal/goth clubs. Same sort of people. Thinking about it, maybe more interested in the music than anything else - going to a club primarily because they are part of the "scene" rather than to pull (although obv there was a vast amount of pulling ).

I got hassle when I went to pubs which were not alternative ie when I went to normal pubs, it was always the "lads" as someone says in "shirt n shoes" uniform type look who were unable to respect boundaries or take no for an answer. I found it shocking, it was not what I had come to expect from males IYSWIM.

Sorry, can't help but laugh. Changing ideas is pretty hard to do if you decide not to engage with those who you disagree with. You talk about embracing diversity, but are repelled by anyone who doesn't hold your view.

Oh the irony!

We have been engaging with wamster for over 1000 posts, jenny!

Hello SQ. Yes, indeed, some people have - and they are most definitely to be commended for their patience (I am on record as disagreeing with Warmster on the point btw). My comment is, therefore, directed at those who take the 'don't feed the trolls' approach.

I obviously mean their criteria for 'troll'...

Anyway, sorry, off topic - but I'm just reading the 'controversial' end of the last thread...

That's what I thought when I saw a post accusing me of being a women-hating bloke called Dan....

Swallowed - yes, I grew up with a friendship culture wherein the worst that would happen to you if you passed out was an eyeliner moustache (if female) or a shaved eyebrow (if male)

Notone of my female friends has ever been mithered by any of my male friends, and it wasn't uncommon for us all to sleep on the floor of the same room.

That's not to say nothing ever happened - but when it did, it was consensual.

And these were 17 and 18 year old boys! Not the group most known for their delicacy or low sex drives! If they can control themselves, then grown men certainly can. "I don't want to" was a good enough reason for them, why is it not a good enough reason for other men?

I still share beds with male friends; if it's that or the floor, no question! It helps that we've known each other for years but it shouldn't be any different if it was a work colleague or someone I've just met. Ridiculous that someone should take the floor when there's a perfectly comfortable bed.

And yes, there was plenty of bed-swapping with intent going on when we were younger. I can't remember anyone getting possessive or funny about it.

Works both ways, of course; I think about my male friends and they wouldn't dream of hitting on women in the ways we've been discussing. They wouldn't dream of viewing a woman as their property. I wonder how much of that was down to our experiences as teenagers...

I know there's incriminating pictures somewhere of us all in the park in each other's clothes. It was me and probably six young men, all drinking cider and messing about. There was quite the fight as each guy in turn posed in my bra!

It makes me really sad to think that there are plenty of people out there who would see that behaviour as dangerous, or that I was somehow asking for trouble.