Should I feel guilty for enjoying degrading sex?

[Georgia1987]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here and I joined because it looks like you have a really good forum here for feminist debate. I registered to ask a question and I'm a bit worried it's not the type of thing people would ask on here or not, but here goes. Sorry if it's too long!

I've been watching porn since I was about 12 and masturbating frequently to it, and grew up thinking I had a healthy sex drive. I got my first boyfriend at 20 and we clicked in every way, he's feminist too (he knows way more about it than I do).

Both in person and in bed I'm submissive, and when aroused my instinct is always to be degraded and I can't help viewing myself through that 'male lens', basically living vicariously through what my boyfriend is experiencing as I'm doing/having things done to me. My boyfriend's always made sure I'm 100% ok with things before he does them, and has admitted that sometimes he feels uncomfortable when he thinks about what he does to me out of context, but at the time he admits how much he loves it. He barely watches any porn, only when I do if he's with me, and I've watched less since becoming sexually active as it's suddenly more "real" to me and I find more of it disturbing.

We've tried me being in power or simply just making love, but I find it really hard to become properly aroused, and when I do I automatically go into "use me!" mode :( I've started to feel guilty all the time because of it and I don't know where many feminists stand on this issue. I also don't want to start subconsciously resenting my boyfriend :(

Please, any opinions at all would be great!!

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Well we can start with - porn. Which, if you read the defenders' accounts, every man watches.

Have you ever seen any porn Vixaxn. Georgia did and it trained her that women are supposed to submit to men and be degraded by them during sex. It's a strong message.

Conditioning has lots of effects Malificence, it's amazing how many people don't want to acknowledge it though. I don't see how people can deny that we are affected by the society and culture around us.

[Vixaxn]

I've watched porn. I haven't seen many instances of the man being sadistic (though I hear that type exists, but is mostly banned now?) Dominant maybe.

Was Georgia 'trained' or did she see something that turned her on? Women's sexuality is not always PC - in fact i'd say there are far more women into bondage than men - if porn was so influential, and carries such power, and as has been said 'encourages sadistic sex, and is mostly watched by men, I'd expect more men to have developed 'sadistic' tendencies, which is not my experience.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

No sadistic pornography isn't banned. Mainstream porn is full of choking, slapping, degrading women (calling them abusive misogynistic names), double penetrations, ATM, etc etc. It's incredibly popular. I'd recommend you read Pornland mentioned above as you don't appear to have much knowledge of the actual contents of porn. Gail Dines describes it very clearly.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Also the idea that there aren't sexually sadistic tendencies within men a group is risible. Given the popularity of the sex industries - use of women in porn and prostitution - and the numbers of sexual assaults and rapes that happen every year, it's clear that there is a substantial sector of the male population that is very much in favour of sexual sadism towards women.

You can also talk about other cultures where mutilated genitals of women are demanded before men will marry them, or cultures where men insist on marrying/raping girls before they are even out of puberty. Then there are all the men who insist on having penetrative sex with women in countries where the death rate in pregnancy is enormously high. Somehow that can't get in the way of intercourse though.

[Vixaxn]

"I'd recommend you read Pornland mentioned above as you don't appear to have much knowledge of the actual contents of porn."

I watch a bit of mainstream porn. It is not full of choking, slapping, degrading women (calling them abusive misogynistic names), double penetrations, ATM, though those things do exist. Most mainstream porn is just two people fucking and looking like they are enjoying it.

[Vixaxn]

"You can also talk about other cultures where mutilated genitals of women are demanded before men will marry them, or cultures where men insist on marrying/raping girls before they are even out of puberty."

You could talk about that, but how is it relevant to the OP enjoying 'degrading' sex? Or making her feel its ok?

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

I don't think you do watch mainstream porn. Mainstream porn is extremely degrading and sadistic to women. It's not a secret.

[Vixaxn]

Oh whatever. You think what you think and I'll base my opinions on what I've actually seen, ok?

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Vixaxn, can you even follow your own argument. You were the one asking questions about how did society encourage men to be sexually sadistic. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question. But don't pretend what I said was irrelevant. It was a direct answer to your question.

The dishonest way of arguing is astonishing. But hten you are the one saying on another thread that you think a woman wearing a skirt means that men think she's sexual available. Hahahahahahaha.

We're not allowed to say that people are trolling are we. So people can come to the feminist section and spout any old misogynistic rubbish and we're supposed to accept it with ladylike grace. I really must go back on holiday.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Yeah, and I'll base my opinions on reality Vixaxn.

Mainstream pornography is sexually sadistic and degrading to women to a horrifying extent. Sticking your head in the sand about that fact doesn't change reality.

[Malificence]

My DH has never used porn, (that's not to say he's never seen it) he is not interested in it one tiny bit, neither would he set foot insdie a "sex entertainment venue" - he thinks that it's an awful industry for all concerned.

It sounds like you are anti any sort of male to female penetrative sex there Capt. ?

Did you notice that I said that sometimes conditioning doesn't have an effect ?

Even if social conditioning does shape your sexuality, that doesn't mean that it is automatically a bad thing.

To some, the very act of penetration by a man to a woman is degrading and means that a man wants to dominate a woman, I don't happen to agree with that assessment.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

"It sounds like you are anti any sort of male to female penetrative sex there Capt. ?"

In your head maybe.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Oh and I bet Georgia is not talking about a bit of penetration when she says she enjoys "degrading sex".

But lets just pretend that it's penetrative sex that's being objected to. It's such an honest way to conduct a discussion.

[Malificence]

You started with the talk about other cultures and the harms of penetrative sex!
Neither that subject nor porn use by her partner are the issues here - getting back to the OP - of course it's not a good thing that she was drawn into using porn at a very young age, it probably shaped her views considerably, not a single person has said that was a good thing.

All that I'm really saying is that sexual submissiveness isn't inherently harmful or the result of social conditioning, otherwise all men would be sexually dominant, which they are obviously not and all women would be submissive, which they are not.

[Vixaxn]

"Vixaxn, can you even follow your own argument. You were the one asking questions about how did society encourage men to be sexually sadistic. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question. But don't pretend what I said was irrelevant. It was a direct answer to your question."

I didn't agree with your answer. Allowed, correct?

"The dishonest way of arguing is astonishing. But hten you are the one saying on another thread that you think a woman wearing a skirt means that men think she's sexual available. Hahahahahahaha."

I am not arguing dishonestly, and am not disrespting your views so please don't disrespect mine. And don't take things I said out of context from another thread please. I was answering a question, and in no way condoning that certain men view sexily dressed women as available. You are resorting to a childish way of debating if I may say so.

"We're not allowed to say that people are trolling are we. So people can come to the feminist section and spout any old misogynistic rubbish and we're supposed to accept it with ladylike grace. I really must go back on holiday."

No, I believe you are not allowed to suggest someone is trolling. So why did you just break that rule? It is unbelievable to suggest that my comments in this thread equate to trolling. It's a lame attempt to discredit me, and makes your arguments look weak. It is also very offensive to paint any of my comments as 'misogynistic rubbish.' You don't 'have to accept' anything, these are my opinions on the subject. I suspect this will be the last time I engage with you, thanks.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Fine by me Vixaxn. Posts like yours were one of the reasons I've been on a break from here.

It's disgraceful the way feminism is being shoved out of this place and we're supposed to roll over and tolerate it.

"I didn't agree with your answer. Allowed, correct?"

You didn't disagree, you tried to pretend that what I said was irrelevant to the conversation. Or have you forgotten already saying this:

"You could talk about that, but how is it relevant"

It's amazing how often people making anti-woman arguments don't argue on the point but just resort to undermining tactics.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Malificence you are completely ignoring the system of male domination and illegitimate power that we all live in, when you're talking about female sexual submission.

I'll be happy to have no opinion about these practices the day after rape has stopped, sexual assault has stopped, sexual abuse of women and girls has stopped, and the day that women are no longer oppressed within patriarchy. Until that happens female sexual submission and male sexual domination and sadism exist within that system and reinforce it. As feminists it is unbelievable to think that it's OK to ignore that fact.

I'm also really surprised or maybe not very surprised at all that no-one has had a word to say about the fact that Georgia only experiences her sexual enjoyment vicariously through her partner. As long as he's getting off and says he doens't mean to degrade her it's all fine is it?

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Right, I'm going back on holiday now, because this obviously isn't good for my blood pressure.

I'd like to leave a question/questions behind:

Why is it OK for men to enact sexually degrading and/or sadistic acts on women and our bodies? Do a relationship, privacy and "consent" actually justify this kind of male behaviour? If so how? Why are those three things more important than ending male violence and sexual harm towards women? If a woman says she enjoys it does that remove any moral responsibility from the man invovled not to behave in this manner? Again if yes, why?

Because in a feminist context I cannot see any justification for men acting in sadistic or sexually degrading ways towards women, and I don't understand why people can find reasons that this sort of behaviour by men towards women can be justified. Orgasms just aren't that important in the scheme of things.

[Treats]

I recognise some elements of Georgia's experience, although mine were in the pre-internet age, so probably a lot milder.

tbh, I think what you're describing is just the extreme end of a continuum that most women experience. We all have our first encounter with sexually explicit material - mostly (I'm guessing) in our early teens. Our reaction to that encounter - to what extent we're disturbed and to what extent we're intrigued - and the nature of the material we view on that occasion is likely to have an effect on the development of our sexuality. Caitlin Moran has a very funny chapter in her new book where she discovers masturbation after reading Jilly Cooper's Riders, at a similar age to when the OP first started watching porn, which to me sounds like a very similar experience - the difference is just the source material.

But I think CPN (welcome back ) is correct in that, regardless of the source material, and notwithstanding that internet porn is of a very different order from saucy novels and old style wank mags, most sexually explicit material favours men. It might not show explicitly sadistic situations, but it's very rare to find anything that doesn't show sex as something specifically designed to give pleasure to men, and that women's role is to make that happen.

Georgia. I think it's encouraging that you're recognising this and want to explore the impact it's having on you. As others have said, I don't know how to 'de-programme' your sexuality from your early experiences, but there must be something to be said for proactively looking for more positive portrayals of sexual activity and learning to look at it in a different way.

Let me know if you find anything

[Vixaxn]

"Why is it OK for men to enact sexually degrading and/or sadistic acts on women and our bodies? Do a relationship, privacy and "consent" actually justify this kind of male behaviour? If so how? "

That word 'consent' that you used, basically.

[Vixaxn]

I'll leave you a question... you realise some women enjoy being spanked, right? Do you disapprove? And do you disapprove of a man that wants to be dominated and treated 'sadistically' by a woman?

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

That's a stupid question. :)

On the other hand mine aren't. Think about it.

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

Also consent does not remove the other person's moral responsibility for their actions. Why do you think it does?

[Vixaxn]

It's clearly not a stupid question. Reverting to not engaging with you.