Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Are you thinking along the lines of having a spiritual side of feminism and using that as the lynch pin of a separatist community?

Nuns do let men in so long as they are priests and as brides of Christ - so its a female community living under male rules still.

v interesting.

fascinating thread, thanks for starting it Victor.

anon - the semi-separatist lifestyle you describe sounds like a completely rational response, to protect you and your family from bullying/abuse. sorry you've had to do this for safety rather than on theoretical grounds.

houseof - yes that's my gut reaction to the issue of whether nuns are a type of separatist community - that they aren't as they are subject to the authority of a patriarchal institution.

religion and patriarchy are inextricably linked
religion is generally force to keep women supplicant with promise of spiritual woo hoo in next world.

That makes sense, SaF and anon, thanks.

I should have been clearer - the reason the nuns thing interested me re. this thread is that that is part of such a misogynistic view of women/women's sexuality (though I've read some very feminist nuns' views where they're trying to turn that around). I just find it very interesting thinking how women respond to these women-only spaces ... not sure if I am doing any more than rambling here!

yep-it is a rational response Total-
unfortunatly-some would see this as irrational!!
lots of male rolemodals for children for instance-[as seen by society for single mums]-the list goes on!

But if feminism is primarily a social justice campaign, isn't seperatism simply opting out of society rather than acting to change it?
I'm reminded a little of 'choice feminism' just because a women/group of women choose something doesn't make it a feminist choice. It obviously suits some women, of course, but does it have much affect on the wider community?

If enough people did it it'd have a big effect on society - same as any social movement, surely?

I've separated from Black people, I lived in South Africa and saw and experienced too many hardships. I now live a much more peaceful life but with whites only.

Anon.... I find your post quite insulting actually, especially about your effeminate sons implying that certain traits are feminine. I have sensitive, kind, caring boys who are just boys.

I'm not sure prejudices, even when having understandable roots, are acceptable. As has been said many times here...When do your effeminate sons grow up into EVIL men?

I wonder why God didn't have a daughter, as she would have truly faced a worthy battle, even belief is patriarchal.

Sunshine, SAF, and annon, I think your experiences really illuminate the theory - that basic point that ultimately, women are safer without men holds true. The rest of it, eh, we can debate it until the cows come home but that basic point, that's the important bit.

This thread shows that there's all sorts of ways in which women become disengaged from men - it's not the mass decision that the theory implies should be happening - but it does happen and when it does, it's usually not-negative (it might not be the Answer to All Our Prayers but it doesn't seem to have done any posters any harm, for example). Women might choose to re-engage, like Molasses, or not.

Anon, it's awful that separation has been forced on you, and I'm glad you've been able to carve a space for yourself within that situation, and keep on fighting. You're very brave.

Sorry, I meant to elaborate on that - 'women are safer' should be taken to mean 'feeling more in control', or something like that. I don't mean to imply that women have suffered violence when they haven't, or vice versa.

With regards to spiritualism, I don't know how 'spritualist' feminism really is but I think to follow your beliefs through to a logical conclusion like separation you really have to belief, deep down in your gut, that this is the right way. Belief-with-a-capital-B, if that makes sense.

But then, that lesbian separatist community posted upthread didn't take that step in order to follow some abstract ideal - it was a pragmatic decision to keep them safe from abuse and the traumatic decisions they were required to make, every day, to appease heterosex society. In that context separation seems very straightforward and not spiritual at all.

I'm running late again, but I totally agree SAF.

I remember watching the tv show where Linda Bellos talked about leaving her children to move into a separatist group. On the programme she was quite upset about it and clearly regretted it.
I can see the point of it as an ideal, and it intrigues me how massively threatening some people find it.
It wouldn't work for me at all, I like men and have a son but I don't see why women who want to live in a man-free space shouldn't do so.

I think those were two fantastic posts SaF.
It's not something I feel I need, but how eloquently you put the argument.
It's really given me something positive to think about.

Really interesting thread. I do think there are few things that could be considered under seperatism.

anon it is a very sad reflection of society that you have been forced in seperatism for saftey reasons, makes me very angry.

I could be considered seperatist in that I will never live with a man again, I simply do not think it is the best outcome for my DS and DD to live in a space with a man. If they could benefit from a true co-parenting set up - that would better for them, but it is never going to happen (not my choice).

A lot of the discussion up thread about sex, for me looks an argument to challenge monogomy rather than a hetrosexual woman (who enjoys penetrative sex) having to take on a sexuality which is not hers, in order to reject standard relationships. As someone mentioned - women women 'cannot give up men because of security , finance etc' apologies if I have mis-quoted. It is that scenario that for me needs challenging.

I do have multiple male 'friends wth benefits', who completely understand the constraints of the friendship, never ask for more and honestly enrich my life.

Institutionally, I work in a very male industry most of my time (which is work related) is with men. to In the last year, several of these senior men (can't really lay any claim on them being particularly pro feminist) have tried very hard for it to be possible to do my job as a single mother. They have for the first time been confronted with what their own organiation's limitation and a bit taken aback - and regard my situation as unimaginably complex and difficult (whereas a quick peruse through MN shows it is completely normal). They have though made things possible for me to work in that environment.

For me seperatism, suggests marginalisation - which makes me feel uncomfortable. Having said that, it looks like I may move jobs to another country -where I will live in effect a small compound of 5 houses, and the landlady only rents to women because she has found men tend to try to dominate. So perhaps I will end up being a seperatist in the end!

I have really enjoyed this thread. On the mainboard if you dare to mention women only gatherings and how you avoid men theres an outcry.
My reasons are a mix of feminism and religion. I really have little wish to interact with men due to the domination of the conversation, assumption of privilage and the whole tension thing if they are eyeing you up.
If i didnt have sons i think id like seperatist feminism and be even more seperatist.

I wonder if it is easier for women of my generation (late 30's and 40's) to interact with men of our own age as their mothers were likely early feminists. I find that I get more respect and listened to now I am my age, when younger I didn't. It may also be because I am less obviously physically attractive and I don't conform to young men's idea of attractiveness (overweight, not much make-up, unfashionable hair, a bit hairy).

I wouldn't like to be a young woman now and I think the pornification of society means it is less safe for them to be who they really are.

I have 3 good male friends and there is no sex-stuff in the way. We have been friends though for 20 years or more - I don't meet many men (who aren't clients) now.

I live a very quiet life too, I don't take a lot of part in society. I work from home 2 days a week, I work in a school 2 days a week (the nature of my job means I rarely see anyone apart from clients) and my work is completely self-determined. I very rarely go to pubs (and I don't remember the last time I was in a nightclub).

I liked the idea of buying female-made goods and I do try to shop ethically as far as I can - I might try and buy female more if it's possible.

see, i live with men who absolutely do not dominate anything or assume privilege or eye me up - it can happen

but then i live within a community (which is in turn part of a wider network of communities) that has set itself out as 'alternative' to the mainstream in all sorts of ways and therefore the men that have chosen to live here are a self-selecting sample

thats not to say though that i don't see the value in women-only spaces because i do, and i have taken part in women-only events/gatherings, and recognise their importance - i'm not trying to be an apologist for the menz at all, but for me, a life that totally excluded men would not be what i wanted

Crapola[8.18.post]
[.................i now lead a much more peaceful life but with whites only......]
i find this interesting.how does seeing what you did in south Africa relate to you living elsewhere now?

[....i find youre post quite insulting actually............]
i dont wish to insult anyone on here.
i find it insulting that my sons are not reconised for who they are!