Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

The novel The Carhullan Army has female separatism as a central part of the plot. Good book.

Apart from dh i lead a female life. No male friends and nor do i want any. But i did have 2 sons as well as 2 daughters so a seperatist existance would be a leetle tricky

[anecdote] I know (have actually met, not just heard of on the grapevine) a lesbian who lived in a women-only community - when she wanted to have a baby (AI with donor sperm) she was told that if she had a boy, she would have to leave [/anecdote]

I don't know what I think about seperatism tbh and so this thread is v interesting. I live in a community with DC and partner, though we live separately in our own spaces. Not a women-only community - but we do have twice as many women as men.

I know Sheila Jeffreys advocates complete sexual abstinence from men, and doesn't believe the revolution is possible without this.

We could use men for reproduction purposes only: keep them in battery farms or something.

joke

Really interesting thread. Has anyone read Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of time. Brilliant book from the 1970s.

She imagines a society in the future where babies are artificially reproduced - and all parents are 'mothers'. It is not a seperatist society, in fact it completely rejects sex/gender distinctions. But people all have their own living space, although lots of aspects of society (food, education, childcare) are communal.

I often think it would be my ideal way to live. (perhaps not the artificial reproduction, but Piercy obviously thinks this is an essential part of a post-gender world. And perhaps it is?)

This is a fascinating thread, thank you for your fab links and thoughts!

While I understand (and appalud) the concept of removing your labour, both sexual and domestic, from men - in order to show them how untenable the present patriarchal structure is without the free labour of women - separatists also remove themselves from other women (those who live and work with men) who would greatly benefit from rubbing up against them (brownian motion of society metaphor, not lewdness, I promise. If you see what I mean. Of course, feminists don't owe anyone anything, and shouldn't have to live in the world just to help others by their very presence, but the presence of other feminists in my life strengthens my feminism and gives me energy and courage to fight the patriarchy.

Separatist living might work (very!) well for the separate, but I don't see it overturning society and it seems(to me) like a missed chance to convince/show/help other men and women suffering under the strictures of the patriarchy.

I fear it's about as impossible as the early/pre civil rights black separatist movements who thought that they should be given tickets back to Africa to found their own nation / their own country within the USA - in fact maybe less possible, since het couples could still be together in such a situation... I dunno.

Interestingly, on the race analogy, there's one couple who decided to 'buy black' - literally, to spend their money to support the black community. THAT is something that feels possible to me - I try to 'buy female' - consume female-created culture, support female-run businesses and business that support women and families fairly (eg Fairtrade) -and my household only employs women as doctors, accountants, dentists,childminders, therapists, physios,... I only give to women/children related charities, etc. I happen to be very fortunate in that, in general, I don't fight the patriarchy in my own home very much. Also, I think that the existence of an egalitarian household (including not just one but TWO MENZ!) is hopefully a contribution to a more egalitarian community. Again, it's the brownian motion thing. Most of my friends and neighbours in this American suburb go to church, and the general perception of Atheists in America is that they are amoral or immoral bad bad people who can't be trusted. So my response to that is to be an 'out' atheist, who works hard on recycling and being friendly to neighbours and having polite children etc. To prove that we don't have horns or two heads or what ever. And I think that our feminism is another political lifestyle that we (for want of a better word) evangelize though living it..

rambleramblewishywashyramble. Do you see what I mean? It's not just 'I love men! and I must keep them near me!' though that is an intense response. But actually I don't love all/most men, and I passionately love female-only spaces - I think they are vital for real feminist support. It's more that I think living your feminism IN the world makes the world a more feminist place. Mind you, the idea of separatist retreats where some people live and others could visit ... sounds pretty great to me!

With catalogue numbers Molasses. ' i shall book number 246 tonight'?

I'll have to add those books to my wish list, AliceTwirled and CaptainBarnacles.

Blackcurrants, your 'buy female' support is a) awesome and b) reminds me of Cunt: A Declaration of Independence in which Inga Musico advocates women making sure their purchases support only other women.

I shall have to read that, VG - it's not always possible but there are some areas (films, music) where the artist's continued employment can depend on how much stuff they sell, so it does matter.

This is certainly an interesting thread...

I have far more male friends than i have women..

This is partly to do with having moved to a new town some 18 years ago when dc were small and finding making female friends really difficult.

Before we moved i had lots of female friends and still partly regret moving because we inevitably lost touch.(I remain in touch with two but we don't often see each other...FB etc)

Making new friends was hard and i found lots of women difficult and unwilling to let me 'in'.

I have one really good female friend were we now live and two or three others.

reeling - that's interesting. I had the exact opposite experience. Since having children I've found female friendship a lot easier to find and develop and whereas I used to have mainly male friends in my 20s, now they're mostly women.

I started a thread a while back about different ways women could live other than in a couple. We talked about communes and the like on there. The idea I liked most was where a whole cul-de-sac/village was made up of individual women, each in her own home (so keeping her own privacy and space). You could work outside the home in a usual job or you could work inside the 'commune' by providing child-care etc. I thought it would work well for mutual exchanges of resources while not being totally divorced from the way modern life tends to work.

For me, I know as soon as my children were old enough to leave home, i would want to spread my own wings too. I think that would apply to a lot of other women and it should be viewed as a positive thing. Women moving out allows for other women to move in. Of course, no one should be forced to leave if they don't want to though and I would hope that the friendships built would continue long after someone has left. Most people's living arrangements change as they enter different life stages - look at the growth of retirement apartments - so perhaps the idea of what to do when a male child comes of age is a bit of a red herring because most women will be ready to move on (or their male child will) by then.

i have no need to be separatist.men and women have enriched my life.
i accept there are inequalities and divisions that affect both men and women,throw class, inequality of opportunity into the mix too. i dont solely want to be with women or reduce my contact with men. i feel comfortable around both genders

i also feel fulfilled in a vocational job were i work with male and female, and that is satisfying

I don't see how a seperate commune could ever work to be honest, what would happen to male children, would they be allowed? and if they are would there be an age where they would no longer be welcome?
Plus the practicalities needed to arrange such a commune could never be organised or coordinated?

How could you make a whole area women only? If its public space then all citizens have the right to be there regardless of sex.

Perhaps we could have a male one, with wall-to-wall sky sports, minimum housework and questionable hygiene as standard.

Truck I happen to know some very clean, houseproud, unsportly gentlemen, actually. +
This thread has had some interesting discussion of male children etc, but the key part about separatist communities is that they're not public.

For me, I think the point of a supportive community is just that: support.

If you read the thread, you'll see much longer and more detailed responses to all your questions but:

a) I can't really find any evidence either way on male children, although one poster has anecdotal evidence of a community that stated a male child would not be able to live there;

b) Separatist communities, though rare, do exist. One poster has linked to an article in which a lesbian separatist community is described;

c) That community is privately owned and it is emphasised that the women who live there are fairly isolated from society. There hasn't ever really been, I don't think, a proposal to designate any public space 'women-only'. As another poster has pointed out, separatist feminism is a bit of a luxury and an expensive thing to put into practice;

d) There are posters on this board who live communally, though not separately;

e) The thread as a whole seems to agree that 'full' feminist separatism is a useful thought experiment for most feminists, but not necessarily a practical or desireable way of life.

Sorry for the list, but I don't want to clog the thread with repetition.

[anecdote] A lesbian friend used to visit a separatist commune/farm in Wales; her son was allowed to visit with her until he turned three.

blackcurrants. I don't must be the circles we mix in.

If my ex (or any ex) decided to live in a commune, where do the fathers fit in?

Is it for women who have used sperm donors?

how would one manage procreation,would males be procured for sex and then once up nelly duff never seen again

the male sons?would they be abandoned too?

the flawed premise is women all get,on and would get on harmoniously to build a fair micro-society. in fact you'd replicate life,the same bullies,same grafters,same ole same ole. just got to look at mn to see women dont necessarily get on or agree because they are women

i dont necessarily have more in common with someone because they are female.is the myth of the sisterhood. we aren't homogeneous mass bonded by gender

I love Tanith Lee's science fiction and feminist twists on traditional stories.
One of her short stories was called 'The Truce' about a future where men and women had become separate tribes and lived exclusively apart.
Didn't work out in the end.

possibly the same place, oldladyknowsnothing

i find this interesting and difficult to get my thoughts straight on

i can see a real benefit to women-only spaces - womens' peace camps spring to mind as inspirational places

but complete separatism, to the exclusion of male children - i'm typing one handed as i bf my baby son, and i just can't get my head round it

sm, If I had to live in an all female community again, I'd rather jump off a cliff. And it has nothing to do with having sex. I just couldn't cope.
Good job it's optional.

the myth of sisterhood is all us wimmin would harmoniously get along.because we are goddesses and women. finally we'd be free to be bullied, subjugated and put down and put down by other women instead of men.what a triumph!

The idea of separatist feminist makes me shudder. What a dreadful philosophy....and a child within that world, disgraceful.