Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

I don't understand why it has been made that way or what the point of it all is. I don't understand why a lion chases and kills an antelope. That's nature. It's not a Disney story, it's often brutal, "red in tooth, red in claw".

Lenin - I don't think there was a time pre-industrial agriculture when there was enough resources to go round, life was easy with time to just 'be' rather than struggle to survive, keep your offspring alive, and where resources were shared fairly and equally etc... It is the old Garden of Eden myth. There wasn't such a time.

SAF - I think your description of nature = men getting their genes out there and women having offspring by many partners is too simplistic and sweeping (it is more complex as the Jared Diamond article delves into). Part of genetic success is not just having maximum children but raising them to maturity - he talks about avoiding infanticide by other men, and getting dads or maybe-dads to contribute to their offspring's survival etc... and how this may have shaped sexual relations.

In answer to your question (to Claig I think, but anyway) yes I think nature is 'sexist', also unjust. Doesn't mean we should be, but I do think the idea that there is an equitable, fair way in nature is a dead end.

I agree Himalaya. Nature is cruel. It is our duty and task as humans to alleviate its cruelty and to create a fair, just, equitable, loving society. I think that is part of our plan on this earth and why we are here participating in the struggle of life for humanity's (and hence nature's) betterment. We can change nature. As Obama said, "Yes we can".

But male lions dominate their societies. Nature is unjust, nature is cruel, animals are killed and are eaten for food. There is no justice in the human sense in nature. Only we can right wrongs and establish justice, only we can change nature.

claig - male lions don't dominate though? Much of the time they're cast out of the pack, and they're more likely to die than teh females. Do you mean alpha males?

Claig do you ever think if there really was a God why send Jesus and not Jemima? Why send a man in a man's world to free the world from suffering? save humanity? Why did Eve sin? Why was she punished so? I don't believe that any God creating all equal would give women such a bad deal.

Nature, evolution is a funny thing. Males are weaker genetically yet physically stronger, that makes sense.....more are made but less survive and so those that so survive to carry on the breed/species are stronger. Females are stronger but can only procreate one set/litter at a time. Nature makes sense, and there are plenty of exceptions. It's a bit difficult comparing social animals with language to animals.

LRD, I agree, I mean the alpha males, the leaders of the pride. The rest of the males are surplus to requirements. I believe that is also true throughout nature.
I believe that nature values females more highly throughout nature, and males are peripheral. I think the human male has compensated for this by the creation of patriarchy, which in a sense is against nature, but is a human construct. I think patriarchy is a bit like a dichotomy in human societies.

I think it's fascinating how 'natural' stereotypes are perpetuated in very un-natural, crafted stories and images. We think of lions as big, strong, roaring male emblems with harems of females to serve them. This is just bollocks, and obviously we do now know that - I mean, if you had to be a lion you wouldn't choose to be a male, your chances of a decent life would be small - but the story is so woven into our culture that it remains powerful. To then cite it as an example of 'nature' and equate it with some kind of 'truth' about how gender relations work is absurd.

I'm always amused that in these debates, people are very quick to cite lions or similar as examples of 'nature' - less keen on seahorses with their male pregnancy or chimps with their lesbianism and co-parenting. Hmm.

ThePosieParker, I think all of those tales are just myths. I don't believe that God did those things.

claig - I don't follow. You said before you didn't think patriarchy was constructed sitting round a campfire - are you saying now that primitive humans understood the power balance in, eg, lion families and decided to react against it?

Why on earth would they do that?

LRD, I said that nature experiments with all types of situations and organisations. But it is what turns out to be the majority organisation which is the one that nature has chosen in the evolution for various species.

I prefer to think of the monkeys that wank alot...that's just me though!!

Even Ricky Gervais [friend of the feminists and disabled ) talks about lesbian hedgehogs!!

What is the majority organization then? I'm confused.

I also don't believe 'nature experiments' - that to me sounds like a very outdated idea of what nature is, or does. Do you not believe in evolution?

LRD, I think there are many factors that drive behaviour. I believe that the main driver in human beghaviour is survival and to ensure survival power to be free from oppression was vital. I believe that men are inherently more prone to die and therefore their striving for power and control is greater. That is why they have managed to seize power and control. Biut I think that this behaviour is not planned around a camp fire, I believe it is instinctual, based on the survival instinct.

WE all agree that generally human males are bigger and stronger though? Aren't we? And most likely in time gone by been the ones that hunted?

The majority organisation amongst humans is the organisation of society of most human societies i.e. male led rather than female led.

I believe in evolution and believe that evolution is an experiment where some changes are discarded and some changes become dominant. I also believe that societies evolve in a similar way.

Ah, I understand better now claig. I don't agree, sorry. I think it's what SaF said. Also, saying men are more prone to die therefore have more striving to succeed sounds like the kind of illogical thinking that has some people believe if you cut your hair it grows thicker!