To all those who say on threads 'I am too scared to go into feminism' - this topic isn't scary!

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I think it's a shame when I see threads where the OP says 'I am too scared to put this in feminism' or something.

I am certainly not knowledgeable about feminist theory, but have never felt that my opinion on this thread wasn't wanted or I was vilified for stating what I believed.

I think this topic is pretty inclusive - yes some people are forthright with their opinions, but nobody's word is god, and I would hate to think that mumsnetters were put off contributing to threads in this topic because they mistakenly think the posters on here are viragos.

"I think its easy to resolve. Dont tell someone they arent a feminist because they do something you, personally, from your privilaged position, disapprove of.
Peasy."

don't throw MRA around as an insult - most of the people called it, aren't

Same with rape apologist

And telling people to get off the thread

And accepting that people can have a different view without them being anti feminist

Much easier to ignore the obvious and some of the not so obvious than to put off women from coming to any part of feminism

Also, bear in mind - whist many posters may be strong and resilient, many others aren't. I was bullied relentlessly at school and have felt those same feelings on MN from feminist posters, they don't even have to be directed at me! The stuff on the Palin thread had me crying and I wasn't the person the hate was directed at

You don't need to be patting posters on the head but a little stepping back and looking a bigger picture wouldn't hurt.

No Proles. I'm not saying I feel bullied. There was no use of the personal pronoun in my post. It really would be less wearying if you read at least one of them properly.

Sparky - I am referring to the whole thread. Not your post.

Hully-i appologise-i thought you was on about my post.
im still saying it works both ways though.

I have felt marginalised and intimidated because i am a religious feminist. Funny enough it has never happenend in real life with feminist groups. Many even accomodate access issues which is great.

I agree that Riven has a valid point about responses to religion.

It's simple. Some people feel bullied. Deny the legitamacy of their feelings if you want to. Turn them into an attack and get defensive.

Proles, really really in all seriousness, how could that be made clearer? Really? Help me out here.

I think Sunshine makes some good points. I just wanted to say that I am neither new nor a regular on the feminist boards; I have lurked for a long while and posted every now and again. Recently I have had more time to engage in MNetting in general and have entered more debates. My experiences have been pretty good on the whole; I have learnt stuff; been horrified by stuff; and laughed at stuff. I have been agreed with and disagreed with and made to think about my positions and opinions. I was/am pretty much a liberal type, but have been swinging more and more in favour of radicalism.
I have not read most of the books mentioned and recommended, but have googled and informed myself and asked questions. It's great fun; so much so that I have to ration my time on MN because otherwise I would be here all day reading and cross referencing. Sadly I have other things to do in my life that get in the way.
As far as I can see, the feminist section is populated with strong opinionated women who like a good argument and isn't afraid to call a spade a spade. Some posters have different ways of expressing themselves and some are more direct or more confrontational than others. This in itself is off-putting to some. But the idea that the board is somehow worse than anywhere else on MN is quite unsubstantiated.
I don't find it surprising that posters say that they feel unattack for their ideas/opinions in the feminist section. I agree it is not pleasant to be called a rape apologist or a misogynist. However, I do think they are useful things to point out if anyone does use a rape apology or a misogynistic argument, even when they don't do it on purpose or think that they don't actually mean it. Rape apologies especially are so ingrained into our culture that it takes a bit of reflection and often someone banging you over the head with an insult of being called an apologist for you to realise. Look at the whole Assange thing, read the arguments he offers. Cringe at the fact that the fact that he seems to admit penetrating a women while she was asleep but can argue with a straightface that the sex was consentual is not being discussed and commented in the mainstream press as something not just unacceptable but patently absurd.
Finally as a feminist who has posted on this board, I would say that everyone is welcome. But I would add that if expect/want your opinions not to be questioned just because you are a women and a feminist, you are running the risk of being offended. As far as I can tell from my lurking and posting, there is very little consensus nor a party-line on any subject. There may be a common goal of equality, but there is also an extreme amount of diverse ideas on how to reach that goal.

Obviously in the inordinate amount of time I took to write that post things have moved on. I would like to make it clear that my post is not written in relation to anything said after about 16h00 when I finished reading and started typing.

I am not a religious person, but I think that religious feminism is valid and welcome. I do not like bullying, whereever it comes from and by whoever it is done. I think everyone is welcome, but I think that all of us, without exception must be ready to be challenged, questioned and made to think (even reconsider) our ideas. Otherwise there is not much point in discussing really. (By that I mean that I see the debate and discussion as an ongoing educational process as well as a form of solidarity and pooling ideas). Obviously there is always going to be personal issues between posters, just as there always is in RL. No one is a saint here and conversely no one is the devil incarnate.

But isn't grouping everyone together also denying the legitimacy of our feelings and differences?

I've felt I got it in the neck unfairly on here and I agree with Riven some people can be very rude about religion, but I also feel pushed about by this thread, which seems as if anyone who admits to liking the feminism section should be bending over backwards to apologize for something.

Cross-post with you SGM.

I think the thing is, mostly book recommendations are made, as you say, in a perfectly friendly spirit. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that they can also be used nastily. I've been attacked for not having read/understood enough books, even when I was in the middle of reading said books. It's not a great attitude. This stuff is why I feel really angry that this thread seems to have turned into a great big guilt-trip for anyone who defends the feminism section.

I agree with you Lenin. I just think that no one is in the position to cast the first stone as it were. I have said things I regret on here before now. I have had posts deleted (at my request) and have made public apologies on occasion. I don't know about everyone else, but I suspect no one thinks that they are a paragon of perfection and I think it is unreasonable to expect others also to be. Recriminations etc are not the way to go, imho.
But, yes everyone should play by the rules. That way trolls would be so incredibly easy to spot (and many are already).

We could go on endlessly debating who has or has not said what, what terminology should or should not be used, who has or has not been bullied, what should or should not be said in the future.

But what will remain a fact is that some of you supported four threads singling out a few individuals for huge criticism and personal comments. I've never seen anything that extreme done to anybody else on MN. I certainly wouldn't wish it on any of you.

i agree Lenin-but the thing is-i dunno-its beggining to feel like we should start licking peoples arses!
i agree tottally that there is something in what some are saying-
but also feminists are being made to feel bad.
in case no ones noticed-this is the feminist section and there is topics that will get heated-these topics can be very personal to some of us.
ok-if someone came into the life limits section and said-"sparky shut up you cunt-dont get upset or angry"-would this be ok?no it wont.
but this is whats happening here a bit-women get angry and upset-now [i feel]we are being told to shut up!
i genuinly want others to come along and speak and give theyre views-
but if we have to tone it down a bit-its just like what men have done to us for centurys!
im not saying that we cant be polite to each other-we can but our views shouldnt be stifled-and i feel that the rad fems [patticcally]are being stifled.
after the last two threads and now this-its wearing a bit thin.
i have all respect for the people who genuinly feel that they feel awkward coming on here-this is wrong[as ive said before]
but im beggining to feel that theres others about who wont be happy untill they see us grovel-im not up for this.

Three. MarySue's got called and pulled quickly.

And two were one that ran over.

So two really. And Getorf started this one in good faith.

So that leaves one. And that was started as a result of huge frustration at what happened on the Palin thread.

Accuracy matters.

Sparky why would anyone want grovelling?

Simple common politeness is what people want. Not to be called names and ordered off the thread etc. There's no need to make it something it isn't.

You know, earlier Milly said I did X,Y and Z, (I won't dredge it up), and I thought about it. I was a bit taken aback by it, but i thought okay, I'll try and give that some honest thought.

It's not that hard to actually really listen to what people are saying and then look inside one's heart and see if there is some truth there. Or at the very least acknowledge they feel it and think about whether or not that is a good thing.

And no, Proles, I am not one of them.

In fact, I don't know why I'm still going. Just desperate to see some understanding of th ematter, I suppose.

Floyjoy
I am glad it kind of made sense .

I can't really comment on the rest of what you said. I don't understand shit stirring trolls either. And I am not scared to post on feminism, nor do I have an issue with any regular users. But I have said that several tines.

I will catch up on what I missed when I was out when I get back from where I am going next. ...