The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

[DontCallMePeanut]

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

I realise I am talking to a brick wall, but all I was ever asking was who thinks verbal consent is necessary every time? The quotes I requoted seemed to suggest that. That's what I was debating, and yes some people have actually clarified what they think. But it really is unbelievable this is difficult to comprehend for some others, or that I need to keep saying 'yes consent needs to be established' again and again and again.

Men just aren't that rubbish at reading non verbal signals. They know when a woman is scared and not actively participating. And if a particular man is bad at reading the signals, he needs to seek proper verbal consent.

For no other crime would people excuse a criminal because he was rubbish at reading the signs. "Sorry your honour, I'm just really bad at knowing how much I've had to drink so it didn't really occur to me not to get into the car and drive." Rightly, it wouldn't wash.

You realise you're talking to a brick wall? Your on here sprouting rape apologetics, and putting across some damaging points of view. At least one woman has felt you've said something that's put her at the blame for her rape, and tbf, this is fucking with my head enough that I'm going to have to leave feminism for a bit, to avoid seeing your misogynist fucking clap trap and feel any more triggered than I already do. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who feels like this.

"Then the onus is on that man to get better at it, or ask outright."

Yes it is. I've said that. I was asking if that means he is also a rapist who wouldn't take no for answer. That was clear, can you read?

"It is ridiculous that you are prepared to excuse rape on the basis that a man might be socially inadequate or not very sexually confident, or to assume that women should be the only ones to have a voice in such a situation."

I never said that. so bored with typing those words. I'm a rape excuser now, sure. lalalala.

"I would start with rebalancing the whole thing so it's not always or solely women's responsibility."

Have made my position clear that it is not solely or always the woman's responsibility.

MarySue, I think verbal consent is necessary every time, and so have all my partners. Why on earth would you not establish verbal consent? Why on earth would you not seek that level of encouragement? Why, for that matter, would you have sex in frozen silence? I don't believe for one moment that anyone who is not a rapist thinks these things are normal or everyday.

MS of course it would be better to say no.

But if a woman doesn't say no, the consequence for her may be that she is raped.

If a man doesn't establish consent, the consequence for him may be that he is a rapist.

It seems pretty obvious to me, who has the greater responsibility to establish consent. Particularly in a society where women are taught right from when they are children, that their needs and desires are secondary to those of everyone around them and are not taught how to assertively state what they want (you can deny it if you want but it's true and I can't be bothered to respond to a post along the lines of "no that's not what happens")

"You realise you're talking to a brick wall? Your on here sprouting rape apologetics, and putting across some damaging points of view. At least one woman has felt you've said something that's put her at the blame for her rape, and tbf, this is fucking with my head enough that I'm going to have to leave feminism for a bit, to avoid seeing your misogynist fucking clap trap and feel any more triggered than I already do. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who feels like this."

Its rape apologetics to ask if verbal consent is always necessary? Was always my only question. You are being tricked by those who have put words into my mouth, not by anything I've actually said. This place is ridiculous, goodbye for now.

Yes, I believe that a man who is not prepared to establish that his partner consents to whatever it is that they are doing, is a potential rapist.

Verbal consent is always necessary if a woman always wants verbal consent to be sought.

It isn't always necessary, if she doesn't find it necessary.

Not difficult.

Dammit, pressed the wrong button. Yes, that man is a potential rapist - not a socially clumsy oaf, or a victim of circumstance.

A refusal to accept this lies at the very heart of the rape culture that we live in.

Back to laugh at the ridiculous term 'rape culture.' And you people wonder why feminism gets a bad rep, by this section you just twist whatever anyone says until they are a rape apologist. Most of you simply cannot or choose not to debate like adults, it's how 12 year olds argue. Pitiful really.

You are reasonable LeninGrad, as are some others I disagree with. It is not nice or fair to be called a rape apologist though.

Yes, that's the real problem here, isn't it? That you're having your arguments taken to pieces. Diddums.

Never mind that your comments are triggering several other posters; never mind that rape is troublingly common; never mind that posters on this thread have responded to your queries only to be mocked; never mind that this thread was started by an article in the national press that is forced to clarify, once again, that rape myths are myths.

No, the real problem here is that your words are being 'twisted'.

Yes, it's always worth arguing with rape apologists and MRA's Lenin, because people with genuinely open hearts and minds, who genuinely want to learn, will be reading. And some of them will re-think basic assumptions as a result of this debate.

Rape culture is a joke?

1 woman gets raped every nine minutes...
Is that a joke?

Most rape victims never report their rape....
Is that a joke?

Most rape cases never reach court...
Is that a joke?

Please let me know when you're laughing here...

Or could it be that youn expect the woman, frozen in fear because her partner's going to far, to tell him "no", rather than the man to fucking well ask consent in the first place, and make sure that she is fucking well ok with it?

Yeah. This is fucking hilarious.

And btw, no. I came to my opinions about your rape apologetics on my own. I'm an educated, intelligent individual. I can work things out on my own, thank you.

If you pretend that a simple solution to being raped, is for a woman to say No to a rapist, then you are a rape apologist. If you ignore the context in which rape occurs in our society, then you are a rape apologist. If you pretend that social conditioning has no impact on how people might behave in a rape scenario, then you are a rape apologist.

If you don't want to be called a rape apologist, stop making rape apologist arguments and engage honestly with the things that women who know much more and much better about rape than you do, are telling you about it.

MarySue, I'm really sorry if we are all misinterpreting what you are saying, but to be fair, we are all reading the same things and coming to the same conclusions about what you are saying.

For me, the reason why you are a rape apologist is because when unclefest described a scenario where she gave non-verbal signals that she wasn't consenting, your answer was that she should have said "no". Responsibility should be on the man to establish consent (and in law it is), not the woman to deny it. To put it down to women makes women's bodies a free for all.

We're not all misinterpreting what he's saying.

He was hoping to get his rape apologist arguments on to the feminist board of mumsnet without being strenuously challenged.

Ain't gonna happen buddy.

[peeps round the door to say thanks to all those arguing this and gives some kind of supporting gesture definitely not non-MN hugs to those that have given personal stories. I hear you.]

gives a great big defintely not a MN hugs to Alice