Help me explain to my friend why this is really wrong

[iMemoo]

A group of women in my town are organising an event to raise money for charity. They are holding a bikini car wash! So basically people (I suspect mainly men) are going to pay them to wash their car whilst they are dressed in skimpy bikinis. My friend is taking part in it. I am horrified by the whole thing. I can't believe that this group of woman are choosing to objectify themselves like this. There are a million things they could have done to raise money and yet they choose to do it by basically getting their tits out for the lads!! I have tried to explain why it is wrong to my friend but I'm just not getting through to her.

I know in my head what I think and why this is wrong but I just can't articulate it. How do I explain to my friend why this is so wrong. Please help me find the right words!

link to report

Of course, the difference between the chicken keepers and the feminist sections is that the chicken keepers do not believe that everyone should keep chickens, and that those who don't want to keep chickens are wrong/ill-educated/under the thumb of the dog-riarchy, whereas I believe that the feminists wish to change the thinking/beliefs of others.

Hence it is logical to suggest that only those interested in chicken keeping should visit the chicken keepers section, whilst suggesting this about the feminism section results in you preaching to the choir, rather than making sure your views and arguments are viewed by as many people as possible.

I am not saying don't come here! Far from it. But don't get upset when people people challenge your view of this event as "exploiting men". To me the use of the word "exploit" is insulting to the huge numbers if women who are exploited by the sex industry and the women who suffer violence. This section is not here to "convert" people one by one. Many lurkers have changed their views through what they've read here.

Other feminists tend to state their point more strongly than me I am actually one if the "teacher-y" ones.

Let me know if that report makes my position on this event more understandable.

Equally, perhaps others here shouldn't get upset when their feminist views are challenged - because it certainly feels as if people are only welcome here if they agree with you. And this section may not be here to convert people one by one, but is it a good thing if it actively puts people off discussing/looking at feminist issues, for fear that they'll get jumped on if they don't say the right things?

What do you think about the report, SDTG?

"Of course, the difference between the chicken keepers and the feminist sections is that the chicken keepers do not believe that everyone should keep chickens, and that those who don't want to keep chickens are wrong/ill-educated/under the thumb of the dog-riarchy, whereas I believe that the feminists wish to change the thinking/beliefs of others."

Just wanted to respond to this bit SDTG. I don't that women who do things like this bikini wash are wrong/ill-eduated/under then thumb of patriarchy. I think they are acting in a pretty rational way in a world where doing stuff like that is normalised and rewarded. But I think that the society is wrong that says those are the things to be normalised and valued. We all live in a society that we didn't get to decide, and I want to change that society.

And that's what I see when I see people criticising this type of thing.

That's why I put my energies into protesting, for example, the existence of lap dancing clubs, but I would never, ever go and hassle a dancer. She's doing what makes sense in a world not of her making. And that goes for every feminist I've ever met I think.

I come on the feminist section to engage in feminist analysis and discussion and generally chew the feminist fat. I come to read other people's views and learn from them. I come to help me understand my own views and express them. I come because it can be lonely being a feminist and it is nice to share the experience with others.

I don't come because I think it is for me to convert others, teach them about feminism, make feminism fun and appealing, or for any other agenda. I also tend not to go on threads in MN out with the feminist section in order to harangue people about feminism. I will answer direct questions about feminism if the question is about something I have experience of or have knowledge of or have interest in.

I know we can be a bit bristly and robust here - I think that is because we sometimes get frustrated and because we really care about female oppression. I think it is also because we also take quite a lot of flak (humourless, lecturing, etc) and are expected to always take it with good grace or we will be accused of putting people off feminism. We do also, very often, have our words misunderstood or even twisted and misrepresented.

I think it is also a bit odd if posters come to the feminist section and are then affronted by coming across some feminist analysis.

Of course not all feminists feel the same about all women's issues. There are however some basic tenets of feminism that form the foundation of feminist analysis, and of feminism as a political movement - without those basic tenets feminism would be watered down to; 'if a choice is made by a woman it is a feminist choice' nothingness. (Game over - much rejoicing in patriarchy.)

It does often feel to me that feminists can never get it right - if we call out women or men on patriarchal views and/or behaviour and suggest that people are choosing that behaviour and are responsible for it, we are being dictatorial and oppressive (despite having no actual power, institutionalized or otherwise!).

If we call out the above behaviour but suggest that the behaviour is influenced by society, we are accused of patronising people and thinking they are stupid and inferior.

Kinda makes one wonder why one bothers really. Patriarchy really sucks sometimes.

"I have a big problem with the strand of feminist thought that always seems to go right round the circle to hold hands with the rightwing religious patriarchal types - the 'Cover yourself up! Real feminists/Nice Girls don't do that sort of thing'' school of feminism."

SGB, in over twenty years of being a feminist I have never encountered what you describe here.

This is what I mean by feminism being misrepresented. What you suggest above is confusing the moral (as dictated by patriarchy) with the political (as defined by feminist analysis of patriarchy) I think.

You might as well just use the 'feminists are prudes' strawman - in fact, I think you just did. Just like you did to me earlier when you asked me if I thought women should wear burquas because I think bikini charity car washes are a pretty damn patriarchal concept.

I can't speak for others who visit the Feminism section, but I am not affronted by coming across some feminist analysis. What affronts me is being treated as if I am stupid/a dupe of the patriarchy/unable to understand the issues and make a decision of my own, simply for expressing an opinion.

Forkful - I have saved the report to read at a later point, but I'm not arguing in favour of violence against women, or saying that it shouldn't be fought at every turn, so I'm not sure why you think I need to read it.

I didn't mean that comment for you personally StayingDavidTennantsGirl - so sorry if it came across that way.

I guess I just get a bit frustrated sometimes by the comments made about this section and feminists in general.

I do think that sometimes feminists can be brusque with people because we hear the same ideas time and time again and it gets very frustrating to address those ideas over and over again. Of course we hear those ideas because they are mainstream notions and paradigms of male dominated society - they are ideas that we all grow up with and are taught to believe without really questioning them. This is how the status quo works.

If we take the example of what you posted on this thread about women exploiting men - this is a very common mainstream patriarchal idea that is often used about all manner of institutionalised sexual exploitation of women by male dominated society. I'm sorry if the reaction you got on this thread about that idea was dismissive or rude or unhelpful, but it is an idea that feminists encounter with disheartening frequency and we aren't always patient and wanting to teach other people about things that it is easy enough for a person to educate themselves about with a little reading. I'm often amazed by the exacting standards that feminists are held to about explaining feminist concepts to other people all the time - and we are hostile meanies if we don't stop our discussion immediately and explain X concept again. (I am not saying that this is what you are doing SDTG - I'm trying to explain in general why these clashes happen.)

It is nobody's fault if they haven't come across the ins and outs of some of the less mainstream concepts of feminism before, or had reason to read about them and explore them. We all have to start our feminist journey somewhere and take and leave the politics of feminism as they fit in with our selves and our lives.

It's just sometimes is frustrating to encounter notions that go against feminist analysis in a feminist space. Of course that frustration can make people who are new to feminist discussions feel unwelcome.

Perhaps we should all be really careful all the time how we address each other and take the time to explain the tenets of feminism over and over again. Perhaps not though. Perhaps people need to take a bit more responsibility for teaching themselves. (Again this is not directed at you personally it is general out loud musing.)

SDTG - I am hoping that the report will explain my views on this thread. It's all about looking at violence against women as a pattern rather than isolated incidents. What factors are there which create our current culture where this violence us so common and sadly in some sectors of society and in an alarming number of teenage relationships normalised. I firmly believe that amongst the factors are the general inequalities we see in everyday life and the objectification of women's bodies.

A society which sees nothing wrong in a family fun day where one gender uses their bodies to generate £ for charity is not one which is taking women seriously.

Genuinely interested in what you think of the report. If you look in MN Campaigns the group who wrote this report have linked with MN to campaign against sexual bullying in schools. Unfortunately the important info in the report I linked to is kept out of the mainstream media.

Beachcomber: Well I have been a feminist for over 20 years as well and I have encountered it, lots and lots of time.
Still, anecdote is not data and all that.

Oh well SGB I guess we move in very different circles then. I do think it is difficult to reconcile some aspects of feminism with some aspects of human sexuality as expressed in the context of patriarchal society. It is a tricky subject as we cannot take the context out of the equation in order to explore human sexuality without the influence of patriarchy.

(No doubt that is as clear as mud!)

SDTG, I wasn't actually trying to patronise you, i was asking you a direct question because it occurred to me that you might not see the connection between what you said and the argument that lots of johns who abuse prostitute women use, that they are the ones being exploited by the prostitutes they are abusing. I'm not sure if you would have sympathy with that argument or not (I don't know your views), so I invited you to consider the connection.

I'm not sure why you got upset about that, it wasn't a personal attack on you it was pointing out the connection between your argument and those of prostitute-abusers. You haven't actually addressed it so I don't know if you agree that there is a connection and whether that has challenged your POV and perhaps that's why you're annoyed with me? Or maybe you are in sympathy with the viewpoint that prostitutes and lapdancers etc., are the ones who are exploiting the poor helpless men? Would you like to consider it or are you going to let your irritation with me stop you doing so? I think it's important to consider it because it's a mainstream POV that is often put forward by people who aren't aware of the power dynamics in the purchase of sexual acts and the reason that they aren't aware, is because our culture deliberately and systematically steers debate away from power relations, because every area of life is infected by unequal power between individuals and groups and delving too deep into that is deeply unsettling for those who have the power.

I would hate to see you when you are trying!

I have exactly the same problem as SDTG in that

because it certainly feels as if people are only welcome here if they agree with you.

What affronts me is being treated as if I am stupid/a dupe of the patriarchy/unable to understand the issues and make a decision of my own, simply for expressing an opinion

I am relieved not to be the only one to feel this.

If they were a true representation of feminism you would have to count me out.

Oh I'm happy to admit that I deliberately patronise the arse off you Exoticfruits, because I find your arguments very dishonest.

I don't believe for a moment that you aren't aware that you're throwing in irritating idiocies just to wind people up and I quite enjoy winding you up back in return.

Your remark to Blackcurrants, that if she harangued someone like the OP's friend, when it's quite clear that B is discussing the issues on an anonymous forum not in someone's shell-like every waking moment, was a deliberate wind-up. It earned the most enormously patronising pat on the head.

And those remarks always play into the "humourless, ranting feminists" image - they're snide and they don't add anything to the debate and no, frankly, they're not welcome here: calling yourself a feminist and then coming on to the feminist section to tell other feminists that they're not the right kind of feminist because they're not womanly and gentle enough and aren't the sort of feminists men like enough, while telling us that we're telling everyone else how to be, isn't actually going to get you very far here. People who disagree but are interested and are trying to find their way, are very welcome; people who disagree and are trying to stop us debating the issues honestly and thoroughly, are going to get short shrift. If you can manage to argue your points without doing that snide stuff, then I'll happily leave off patronising you. But if you can't, then I'll carry on too.

LOL it's like our arguments are pretty water tight - who can argue with equality? But if you can attack us instead, because we're not placatory enough, weak enough, diffident enough, then you can divert the argument away.

It is only applied to feminism isn't it, this double standard of "but can't you just be more nice in how you argue?"

And what they mean is: "can't you just not say that?"

This is a public thread-open to all-free to say anything, unless censored by MN. I don't that it is anything to do with you to say who is welcome or not HerBeX. It is the first time I have heard of a self appointed censor.

Everyone is equal on MN. Everyone is welcome to post where and what they like. A person with one post is equal to a person with 1000 posts. There is no MN royalty-unless self appointed.

You are the people who are going on about not being welcome here, so I'm using your own language Exotic.

Why the fuck should you be made to feel welcome anyway? It's not my job (or anyone else's) to welcome you or turn you away. Just post and see how it flies. If your post results in people coming back and asking you direct questions or telling you you are posting a load of crap, so what? Why do you then complain about not feeling welcome? What is this not feeling welcome crap anyway? Do you go on the relationships board, or AIBU boards, and complain of feeling unwelcome when someone disagrees with you or rolls their eyes at you? I bet you don't, it only ever happens on the feminist boards, like we're under some kind of obligation to get the tea and cake out for every passer by who fancies coming in and saying things some of us disagree with.

And another thing while I'm in ranty mode - everyone always focuses on the one post that was disagreed with while ignoring everything else that was considered carefully or accepted. They focus on the fact that one of the nasty feminazis was a bit snappy and has turned them off feminism and forced them to join the Ku Klux Klan while simply ignoring the fact that a few other feminazis agreed with them, considered their arguments or simply didn't respond to them because they didn't feel that strongly about it.

It's all a load of defensive bollocks IMO.

I think that you are entirely missing the point, I was not talking about being 'made to feel unwelcome' I was talking about remarks 'being not welcome here'. Why do you get to say? I find them very welcome and I am equal on here. You may not agree with my views ,but it is a free country, a free and open thread and you are not the arbiter of what is welcome or not.

I have amended my views in some places, not that you would have noticed, when people have been polite and reasonable. I am not going to amend anything if my arguments are torn to shreds, I am patronised and told not to post, and addressed like a public meeting-that always does the opposite to me and I am stung into retorts that I don't actually mean! But as you don't want to 'win friends and influence people'-it doesn't really matter. I would have thought that way to get change was to do both the above, rather than have cosy little moans with like minded people.

All we have achieved is that I might well listen to people on here with very different views- who are reasonable, but we have got to the point of nothing to say-we look at each others name and are anti with each other before we start.

Perhaps we had better just ignore each other and talk to the rest.