Help me explain to my friend why this is really wrong

[iMemoo]

A group of women in my town are organising an event to raise money for charity. They are holding a bikini car wash! So basically people (I suspect mainly men) are going to pay them to wash their car whilst they are dressed in skimpy bikinis. My friend is taking part in it. I am horrified by the whole thing. I can't believe that this group of woman are choosing to objectify themselves like this. There are a million things they could have done to raise money and yet they choose to do it by basically getting their tits out for the lads!! I have tried to explain why it is wrong to my friend but I'm just not getting through to her.

I know in my head what I think and why this is wrong but I just can't articulate it. How do I explain to my friend why this is so wrong. Please help me find the right words!

"only a bit of fun"

Ah, yes! The ultimate defence of the porn-lite apologist

Really SDTG? Poor old men eh. incapable of putting money in a collection basket without having the horn

Well I'm bored with this argument now. I think the bottom line is that showing off your body is not a bad thing if you do it willingly and enjoy it. Nor do I think it's a bad think to look at other people's bodies and think impure thoughts about them. ANd the way forward with this sort of thing, the effective way forward, is always going to be the one that involves more fun, not less. Feminism derailed itself badly when everyone started analysing exactly what length of sleeve or height of collar made you antifeminist.

Sold you are sounding much less inteliigent than you are. Feminism has never concerned itself with the length of sleeve it has always concerned itself with the social, political and economic context of the sleeve. You know that, I don't know why you're pretending not to.

You do realise that johns who abuse prostitutes use that argument don't you Davidtennantsgirl? The nasty old trafficked women who exploit poor menz with their sexual power, because the men are unable to stop themselves handing over money so they can use a woman as a wanksock...

I would suggest HerBeX, that if you want to persuade anyone to your line of thinking you need to stop being so patronising .
You may want to carry on the debate on line-but this is only if people agree with you and you can have a cosy little chat among like minded people with no one interfering.

I can't help patronising you whenever I see you Exoticfruits. It's an irresistable temptation.

Exoticfruits you might want to lay off the personal stuff.

You got pretty personal with me, spoke about me in the third person, and quoted me out of context.

In return, I replied (seriously) to your points by expanding on what I think and why I think it. I also asked you a direct question that you have not have the courtesy of answering.

Interestingly, having a freer society in which are allowed to make those choices is great! You'd have been hard pressed 50 years ago to find that type event occur. I do agree; however, that in any free market society, individuals have the choice as to whether or not to donate to a charity based on how they promote themselves. Boycotts of particular charities for this reason can be a good thing, and sets an example of how the majority of people expect societal morals to work. Fortunately, this becomes regional in effect for smaller charities. It's much harder to have a significant impact on the larger ones.

If this bikini car wash thing is no biggie, why are you and SGB pulling the old 'you're doing feminism wrong, why aren't you concentrating on something else, you're a humourless prude who wants everyone wearing standard issue dungarees' silencing crap on me?

If it was this question I ignored it because I don't remember saying it. I just couldn't stand all the very serious lecturing about a charity thing that is neither here nor there-lots of men do things equally stupid.

I am not ignoring you now-just going off line.

( I am much happier with personal attack than being patronised)

I'm not interested in personally attacking you. I prefer to patronise you.

OK, fair enough exoticfruits, it would appear that you didn't understand that my question was referring to the combination effect of your and SGB's posts.

It sounded to me like the two of you were coming from the same standpoint and employing fairly standard 'silencing' tactics such as 'you'll put people off feminism by taking it seriously' and 'there are more important things you should be discussing'.

I guess I got that impression because you agreed with SGB, claimed my posts made you want to run out a wash cars in a bikini at the first available opportunity, and, quoted me out of context in your post of;

Thu 30-Jun-11 06:21:04
"Of course this is why feminists are so often painted as 'humourless'"

Too right! It doesn't help the cause.

What I really said was;

"Of course this is why feminists are so often painted as 'humourless' - because we don't find cultural references to our oppression, or examples of our oppression screamingly funny."

That's the trouble when you quote out of context (without addressing the poster in question), or address people in the third person - misunderstandings arise.

Still a bit breathless at the tragic fact that we are having this discussion again. I cannot imagine the mental contortions required to believe that the bikini event described could possibly be construed as anything other than sexist, anti-woman objectification. I hold these truths to be self evident. And for very similar reasons to the original context of those words.

Sorry, I expect the humourless was out of context. I just think that a sense of humour, not lecturing and not taking yourself so seriously would do the cause far more good. Lead by quiet example, people do what you do-not many like to just do as they are told!
I was agreeing with SGB that there are far more things in the world-terrible things-too numerous to mention-to worry about than a charity car wash and what the people are wearing or not wearing. I don't like it, but there are things far more worthwhile of my energies.

Patronise away HerBex -I have got over the irritation- but it doesn't win friends and influence people. I love the quote from another thread from someone who thought she was a feminist until she found 'the self-appointed arbiters of MN feminism'. I am a feminist -but most definately not as defined on here.

sorry -definitely

I think it's a fairly fundamentally feminist position - to discourage women from pandering to male obsession with female near-nakedness. It is minor compared with FGM and sex-trafficking of course. Just as poverty in the UK is fairly minor compared with a serious famine in other parts of the world - but concern for one is part or and does not negate concern for the other.

And if I type this whils laughing lightheartedly will that save me from accusations of humourlessness?

Oh that's OK I don't care about winning friends anymore. I've got enough.

As for influencing people, I think if people they are open to the arguments, they will think about them however they are delivered. If people let their egos get in the way of the arguments (something we all do at times), that's up to them.

See I think the posters on the feminist section are blimmin' hilarious.

There is a lot of humour and wit in this section. The feminists blogs I read are very funny too. Sometimes it is fairly dark humour and sometimes it is poking fun at patriarchy in a satirical way. Humour has always been a very communicative political tool and it helps to keep morale up. It also helps to share 'in-jokes' and plays on words, etc with like minded people because it helps us to feel part of a movement and not alone.

Having said that, there is so much about feminism that just isn't funny - oppression isn't funny, male violence isn't funny. There are many aspects of feminism that I am humourless about because humour has no place in these areas, there is just no joke to be made. I'm thinking of rape, DV, the commodification of female sexuality, trafficking etc.

I think people who are 'put off' feminism because it ain't a laugh a minute are very odd though. Especially considering that women are constantly being told to 'lighten up' and 'it's just a joke' - generally when someone is sexually harassing or assaulting them.

I don't think this bikini charity crap is funny because it falls right into the normalization of the commodifcation of female bodies and sexuality - one of the biggest issues faced by women in male dominated society. I'm not surprised that lots of people don't see how crass and offensive that is. Just don't ask me to laugh about it - you might as well ask me to laugh at lap dancing.

But hey lets not let the humourless militant no fun feminists spoil things with their annoying habit of detecting patriarchal bullshit when it is right under everyone's noses.

Just have a heart and think about the fact that the women who are taking part in this event are commodifying their bodies for charity and a laugh and because they fancy feeling sexy and being admired. I happen to think this is a stupid thing to do in the middle of a blimmin patriarchy - I also think it is a slap in the face to solidarity with women whose bodies are commodified for much more sinister reasons and in much more violent and coercive ways.

And that is not funny.

I just noticed you said this exoticfruits;

"Lead by quiet example".

What do you mean in a ladylike manner? Like patriarchy tells us to? Like good girls who don't shout and make a fuss and get angry and assertive?

That won't get us anywhere.

I do think it is a shame that lots of women turn away from feminism because it isn't feminine and ladylike as dictated by patriarchy. Hugely ironic, but a crying shame.

I have posted on a couple of feminist threads, and have been hit with rather aggressively patronising responses that suggested I was unintelligent for not agreeing with what was being said, that felt to me like attempts to silence me. I feel that way about HerBeX's response to me earlier on this thread.

We are not supposed to live by the rules of the patriarchy - but instead we are supposed to live by the feminists' rules, and anyone who dares to disagree will be ridiculed, patronised or shouted down.

I now fully expect to be told that I don't understand the issues properly, with the implication that I am some fluff-brained moron incapable of intelligent thought. Heaven forfend that I might consider the issues and come to a different conclusion.

If you patronise and shout down all differing opinions, you will drive all but the true believers off the Feminism topic - and how much good will you do if you are just preaching to the choir?

Well one part of being a feminist (for me anyway) has always been about understanding that not all feminists are a homogenous mass who agree on everything, any mroe than all women are exactly the same and agree on everything. I have a big problem with the strand of feminist thought that always seems to go right round the circle to hold hands with the rightwing religious patriarchal types - the 'Cover yourself up! Real feminists/Nice Girls don't do that sort of thing'' school of feminism. This mindset was around when the Slutwalk was in the news, and I thought it strange that so few people got what it was about - the message I wanted to convey (couldn't go, in the end, no childcare' was Actually I am a slut, I wear revealing clothes and like group sex but it's still up to me who I have sex with and no one is entitled to attack me. There have been posts on this thread suggesting that if men make derogatory comments to these bikini-clad women it's all their own fault and serves them right. That's not my idea of feminism.

"There have been posts on this thread suggesting that if men make derogatory comments to these bikini-clad women it's all their own fault and serves them right. That's not my idea of feminism."

Not mine either.

But the problem isn't with them choosing to be semi-naked in public - the issue is that they are doing this because they know it will get them more money from men because men like looking at tits and arse. Nudity simply wouldn't be an issue if everyone was naked all the time but that isn't the case so it becomes sexualised.

SGB - I have far less problem with Slutwalk than this bikini car wash. For me it is not what is being worn but in what context.

I thought the Slutwalk movement was an amazing thing to have sprung out of that twat police officer in Canada's victim blaming words. It pissed me off that it got more coverage than Reclaim the Night etc.

The women chose what to wear on Slut Walk. Some did not wear revealing clothes. No £ changed hands.

In this event if you want to raise £ for charity you need to wear a bikini. People are being invited to WATCH. It is not about clean cars! It normalises men ogling at women in a "fun family" setting.

I am not advocating banning the event/preventing women from taking part. I would certainly discourage a woman I knew from taking part and would not attend myself.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl - wrt to this section of MN it is often the only place I see an alternative view to mainstream thinking.

The oft used Chicken Keepers section is trite but apt. Anyone going there saying that pursuit is wrong/crap/dogs are better would seem a bit strange.

I know people find it annoying when they get told to go and read some books but honestly many feminists find it upsetting when someone says that an event like this exploits men!

I link it into the wider context of Violence Against Women. Please look at [http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/data/files/a_different_world_is_possible_report_email_version.pdf this report]]. Page 20 of the PDF shows factors contributing to VAW. A lot of it is to do with attitudes towards women. This event normalises objectification against women then you get street harassment and men controlling and abusing their girlfriends etc.

This stuff is just not being discussed properly in the mainstream press. Please please read the report and start to join up the dots on these issues.

We need to end violence against women.

Chicken keepers section analogy