Help me explain to my friend why this is really wrong

[iMemoo]

A group of women in my town are organising an event to raise money for charity. They are holding a bikini car wash! So basically people (I suspect mainly men) are going to pay them to wash their car whilst they are dressed in skimpy bikinis. My friend is taking part in it. I am horrified by the whole thing. I can't believe that this group of woman are choosing to objectify themselves like this. There are a million things they could have done to raise money and yet they choose to do it by basically getting their tits out for the lads!! I have tried to explain why it is wrong to my friend but I'm just not getting through to her.

I know in my head what I think and why this is wrong but I just can't articulate it. How do I explain to my friend why this is so wrong. Please help me find the right words!

I like your tuppence, BC < ahem >

I am filing that young woman/old woman/pg woman/man scenario away for future use

Actually, in terms of thinking about the social effect, I sincerely hope the OP devotes enough of her spare time to encouraging her friends to consider the most urgent and important feminist issues, such as campaigning for reproductive rights/better maternity care/equal pay/better protection for victims of DV etc.
Because something that struck me is that when a feminist goes on the heavy attack against a woman or group of women doing something they percieve as 'harmless fun' - the OP has called this charity stunt 'horribly wrong' which made me think, when I first clicked the thread, that her friend had voted for Nadine Dorries, joined the BNP or written a book telling women how to be a successful OW. or something like that - and doesn't listen to the women's point of view, she's pretty much ensuring that any time she wants to enlist their support for a more serious feminist cause they will be much less inclined to listen. Going on and on about a small scale charity stunt like this which really isn't a big deal to quite a lot of feminists let alone the rest of the world, just encourages people to think of feminism as about being pissy, joyless and self-righteous.

I don't disagree, Springchicken, but I also think that these 'small' things all add up, have a drip-drip effect, and other cliches, and ensure that women are still perceived as second-class citizens. I also don't think people need much encouragement to call feminists joyless, humourless, etc etc, and will level that accusation at feminists whatever they say or do.

So I don't know what the answer is, really. Perhaps to support the bigger issues while also making your opinions heard about the smaller ones. But I agree that being heavy-handed about it, especially to friends, doesn't do anyone any favours.

Forgotten how good Cool Hand was. The eggs, I remember the eggs.

The bikini thing is just tacky apart from anything else.

i think sgb is right that you have to let her be to do what she wants. but i also agree with OP that it's a fairly weird thing for a bunch of women to want to do...

it wouldn't be to do with body insecurities for me, but that i really wouldn't want some of the neighbourhood weirdos (i'm shuddering just thinking of our very creepy norman bates-esque neighbourhood watch coordinator) coming for a perv, nor for that matter one or two of the local lecherous playground dads...

To some extent it depends how the event is being staged.

If it is basically a group of women getting into their bikinis and cajoling their male friends and relatives to bring their car to get it washed in a private setting then its all bit of 'seaside postcard' fun and actually probably just a bit embarrasing for the blokes being dragged into taking part.

On the other hand, if it's basically women stood at the side of a busy main road in their bikinis holding up a big sign inviting all and sundry to stop for a car wash then perhaps its a bit different.

Springchicken - interesting point about the BNP. The fash might go in for having Black men dressed as B&W minstrels doing a bit of cotton picking or something that some killjoys might saywas racist. But in the grand scheme of things, low pay, racist attacks, etc, it's just a bit of fun. Nadine Dorries might be tricky, not for her internalised sexism but for her support for attacks on public sector workers. And so on. Obviously, if it's just a little bit sexist, it's only women, eh? Back of the queue. Next!

Was going to make the black and white minstrel show analogy too earlier.

No harm in blacking one's face and acting like the white supremacist imposed idea of a stereotypical black person surely? I mean if one chooses to do it and it is for charidee and just good fun. Even better if one's black friends join in - then it can be ironic and empowerfulizing and post, um, postantiracism postabolutionist postcivilrights post something that sounds clever but doesn't really mean anything other than wake up and smell the backlash.

There would be street marches against that sort of thing.

Doing the same to women, indeed getting them to do it for themselves - family fun and just a joke and no harm done. I despair.

enjoyed age thing too. Beach, I am coming to suspect that you are a bitter woman. Bitter and twisted. My favourite kind. On a totally separate subject, the sky just exploded. Twice. South East thunderstorm. Neville (cat) not pleased.

"in my opinion she should be able to wear whatever she likes without fear of the "pervy man form next door" groping, commenting, or otherwise."

In mine too HRH.

And if she's psychologically and intellectually armed against his disgusting behaviour, she'll be fine. But a woman who thinks that the only reason a feminist might be opposed to women taking their clothes off for charity is jealousy, doesn't sound intellectually armed to me, though perhaps she is psychologically.

Beachcomber: there is a difference in a white person blacking up for a charity stunt, and a woman putting on a bikini. A woman in a bikini is not pretending to be someone else or something she's not.
A black person putting on a minstrel outfit and blackface make up and singing Mammy or something - now that would undoubtedly be uncomfortable viewing but that would probably be why it was being done in the first place. Still, that's a whole different discussion.

No sorry, if you don't understand that someone might be motivated by something other than jealousy, you're really not that bright.

She might of course, simply have been saying that out of frustration and irritation at the OP going on and on at her, but it really is the sort of sentiment I'd expect from a thick person. Intelligent ones who disagree with the OP, would be able to come up with something a bit better than that.

If you can't explain by yourself why it is so wrong, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's just not a clear-cut thing and you are coming across as annoying with your 'just can't get through to her' attitude..

Not really pointydog. Poor OP was only looking for ways to articulate her instinctive reaction. That's a very common reason for posting on MN.

Yet there's all these assumptions that she's going to berate and harangue her friend, til, beaten and cowed, the friend will agree to anything to shut her up (which as we all know, is a dynamic that never plays out in rl in all sorts of scenarios). Maybe iMemoo is a dictatorial loon, or maybe she's someone who wants to define her stance for her own benefit. Or maybe she 's just jealous .

I'm just giving another opinion, sal.

It's not just you pointydog, I shouldn't have singled you out.

But not being able to articulate a viewpoint doesn't mean the viewpoint is wrong - basically every post I've ever made illustrates this to some degree

The OP knows that it is counterproductive to keep trying to persuade her friend to change her mind. The OP agreed with SGB

'SGB you're right, I can't expect her to agree with me, who am I to say whose opinion is right.'

The OP was frustrated that she couldn't seem to convince her friend. But she realises that everyone is different and sees things differently. I think she was just wondering if there is any argument that would be so strong that it could convince her friend.

Yes tbf, the OP doesn't say that she's been haranguing her friend about it. Maybe she has, maybe she hasn't.

Have you OP?