Question re making yourself look pretty....

[AliGrylls]

Why do women still subject themselves to pain to make themselves look pretty? I am talking with reference to eyebrow plucking, waxing of all body parts and wearing high heels that have the potential to cripple. Also make-up - what do feminists say about make-up?

I ask this question because since I have given up work and had kids I have not bothered to subject myself to any of the above (bar the occasional eyebrow pluck) and I feel liberated by it. I have realised that making yourself look good is actually a pain in the bum and also DH doesn't care very much about what I look like (obviously not as much as I thought he did when we met anyway).

Thoughts please.

peanut your friend's wedding sounds like it'll be great! You didn't miss much with mcdowdall, as far as I know.

mumwith - yes, I'm the wrong shape for trousers - I don't own any except jeans. But I make that choice for me. Which makes a load more sense than the rubbish Caitlin Moran is peddling about 'don't wear heels because men don't like them, only silly vain women'. Grrr.

Haha, I empathise with the wrong shape thing completely... I'll stick to my floaty dresses with dark tights... They hide a rather pear shaped figure... Accessorise with heels, and I don't feel like my backside is the size of a small country...

LRD, it will be, I know it. even more so that DS will be her page boy... He'll look adorable!

Oh, rubbish, I bet your arse looks perfectly lovely however you dress it!
I actually find it's more basic than that ... I wear trousers and find I'm constantly hitching them up as they slip, or shifting them so they don't cut of my circulation - there's no middle ground.

Nice for your DS - it's funny, that's one of the few occasions it's perfectly acceptable (socially) for little boys to dress up in public, and they often seem to enjoy it, don't they?

I'm one of these unfortunates. My waist is a size 12 -14. My top, a size 10 - 12. Backside and hips? Size flipping 16. So, If I buy size 16 trousers, they slip down. Size 14, and I feel like my backside is fighting a losing battle for freedom.

This is true! He's been a pageboy before, at DB's wedding, and loved it!

"MY abusive dick of an ex hated me doing anything that he deemed "making myself look pretty". I wasn't allowed to wear make up, wear heels or straighten my hair without his consent. Now, I do it when the hell I like, and I'm not going to have some wave of feminism dictate to me that I can't do so. I spent the first 24 years of my life being oppressed by my parents and my ex. NOW it's about me.

Isn't feminism supposed to be about giving women choice, as opposed to dictating what they can and can't do? Because if the rules of feminism dictate that I can't "prettify" myself, or wear pink, then count me out."

I would hope so. So id like to see some respect given to women who cover up amd dont prettify.

I also saw an article about the 'showgirl' wax. Every single hair on thw body. Including arms. Ouch

Aye, Riven, I'm not saying that women who do cover up deserve any less respect. Far from it. I just hate the whole "you can't be a feminist if..." brigade. I've even heard it from so called "militant feminists"

On a side note, I think I misinterpreted the OP, and felt a little defensive as a result.

What I'd love to see is the removal of the use of the phrase "making yourself look pretty". Surely we should be embracing the natural look, but at the same time accepting people use things such as straighteners/make-up/heels/waxes. It doesn't make them any more pretty than someone who DOESN'T feel the need to use these things.

Surely the showgirl wax is bordering on masochistic, though? I thought waxing my legs was more painful than childbirth...

DontCallMe, I think it's important we ask why people do these things though, while still accepting all the choices made.

Agree with people dicatting what a geminist should do or look like. Thus oppressing women.

I like that poem 'pretty' by Kate, umm, Makkai?

TW, I agree, but what if we don't have the answers?

I mean, the use of make up dates back to the Egyptian period, IIRC. It's just something that's become more global since. Some women will do such things for partners or to get male attention. Others may feel more powerful. I think there is an element of it being slightly different for everyone.

Must also add, what of the men who wear make up? What are their reasons?

Riven I've not read that poem. Will try and find it later.

YouTube - Katie Makkai - Pretty

3 min - 3 Nov 2007 - Uploaded by crzylbrlchick
Katie Makkai, a veteran poetry slammer - defining the word "pretty". Transcript can be found here: ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6wJl37N9C0
More videos for pretty katie makkai »

That youtube link. What i cant do properly sorry

Wow! I liked that! Ty, Riven

Asking the question is the important thing I think.

I never questioned why I shaved my armpits, and remember being really at someone who hadn't shaved their legs.
Now I know that I don't have to if I don't want to.

I've always been interested in all the variety of body modification that does and has gone on, including make-up, hairstyles, shaving, tattoos etc. Some of it is quite horrifying from our cultural standpoint, the Padaung women's stretched necks for instance. Looking at what we do from an outside perspective can be quite enlightening.

One of the things that annoys me about modern western bod mod is that we do all these things and try to look like it's 'natural'.
So that rather than 'decorating' ourselves with bright colours and beads we are saying that our actual natural selves are unnatural in some way.

ilovedora - my apols - when you said you did check-in for the falklands i assumed you meant on the desk. ergo mover. admin is slightly different as it's one of those things that girls are supposed to do (one of the few places in the military they are desirable). so you wouldn't have got as much sexist rubbish. female movers are subjected to a lot of criticism, and have been right from the start. the uproar when they let women into the trade (they are too weak/ can't lift the bags/ fork the freight), and then when the first one got promoted, dear dear. and the capability question is still raging, with each girl recruited being under immense pressure and scrutiny to prove herself.

did you ever read that lovely article by the female herc pilot on ops btw? 'a day in the life of' - lots of discussion over adminers in there... not just blokes who can be mysogynistic numpties.

The conforming to beauty standards thing is often about not wanting someone to look at you/judge you on your looks.
Personally, if i wore a sundress on a summers day, I'd definitely shave and apply a layer of tan. Not so everyone could admire my sexy legs, but so they'd skim over them and not notice. That probably applies more to fear of womens' judgement than male though.

There's also n element of being in control/being able to cope with life too. Superwoman can juggle the lot.

What's interesting to me is the blurring of looking nice and looking sexy. It's nice to look nice down in Tesco, but sexy? Unless you're actively on the pull it's logically a pointless notion to look sexy.

Of course, the fundamental problem is the importance looks have in a woman's life. Because our function is basically to be qualify as being good enough to have sex with.

"One of the things that annoys me about modern western bod mod is that we do all these things and try to look like it's 'natural'.
So that rather than 'decorating' ourselves with bright colours and beads we are saying that our actual natural selves are unnatural in some way."

I have an issue with that as well, I prefer to look deliberately made up. Rather than made up in a pretending not to be made up way.

sinical sal... I have been giving these issues some thought, and am totally with you on the looking nice/ looking sexy idea. The distinction is really important, and conciousness of it will help me to dress more confidently.

Oh dear. Why shouldn't we all try to look as nice as possible? I like to look nice. Don't we as women shoulder enough guilt without being made to feel we're letting the side down if we wear a bit of lippy?

wicket keeper, I think looking nice is important, I just think that it's a shame to allow insecurity to make us feel that we need to look a particular sort of nice, at personal cost in terms of time, pain, comfort, money etc. Lippy is not letting any side down at all! unless you keep missing the great conversation at the bar because you keep going to the toilet to reapply it!

Due to (head) hair loss i decided to buy a wig last month. I tried on several, and ending up buying the one that made me smile - ie. a glam highlighted WAG style long layered creation.
When my sister saw it she said 'you do realise that you'll need to wear more make up to carry that off!?' Then i had 2nd - but it was too late to return it.
I ask myself why I chose that style of wig when i am more of a 'geeky bun and glasses' type.
Is it because i wanted male attention?
Er, yes.
I admit it.
I wanted to look beautiful to men. And yes, looking a certain way can be useful in this world.
But i am still a feminist without doubt.

(I mean 2nd thoughts.).

I'm just not sure how i will explain about my hair to a man. Or why i take the meds i do (in fact i won't wish to discuss that at all). Oh, crap...

Men wear shorts and flip flops with nary a thought to their hairy legs and non-pedi'd tootsies...

I wear make-up, dye my hair, pluck, shave*, etc, etc. I do it because it makes me feel better about myself. I am long past the point of looking to attract or impress men, so it is definitely for myself, and not even for DH who wouldn't be bothered if I never wore make-up again. As I say though, I wear it because it makes me feel better about me.

But - I'm under no illusions that the only reason it makes me feel better about myself is because that's the expectation on women and that we've been conditioned into believing we need it, and that it will make us feel better about ourselves. I'm not closing my eyes to the bigger and the outside influences.

• I only shave my legs if they are going to be exposed and only because I know I will be sideways glanced at by people if I don't....

I agree with Leningrad, plucking my eyebrows HURTS so I have stopped doing it. I don't really notice the furry bit in the middle and if I do I don't care enough to hurt myself getting rid of it. But my little sis would be very upset if her eyebrows looked like mine. She takes great care plucking. Each to their own, I say.

I do pluck and wax, but I do it because I want to, it makes me happier. I have tried the 'not waxing my legs' thing and it kept playing on my mind, as I wasn't happy, so I waxed. I wasn't doing it for anyone else, as it was winter time, so my legs weren't on show. It didn't even bother DH. I just wasn't comfortable like it.

I rarely wear make-up though, I see it as a mask, especially too much of it.