Question re making yourself look pretty....

[AliGrylls]

Why do women still subject themselves to pain to make themselves look pretty? I am talking with reference to eyebrow plucking, waxing of all body parts and wearing high heels that have the potential to cripple. Also make-up - what do feminists say about make-up?

I ask this question because since I have given up work and had kids I have not bothered to subject myself to any of the above (bar the occasional eyebrow pluck) and I feel liberated by it. I have realised that making yourself look good is actually a pain in the bum and also DH doesn't care very much about what I look like (obviously not as much as I thought he did when we met anyway).

Thoughts please.

I can't argue with that TimeWasting. I only keep up with the shaving when my legs are on show.

not really special rules, dora i mean, you have a choice whether to comply or not - depends how strong of character you are. the minute i got engaged it was made very clear to me which committees i was expected to be on/ head, what my responsibilities would be when the blokes were deployed, etc etc. up until that point i had largely assumed the 'wife of' thing was a really good and old-fashioned joke. i even made an unwise-wisecrack about flower-arranging. once.

but the american book is very real. and huge. they have a real 'two for one' thing going on.

re hair etc. depends what you did, i think. with vip handling and stuff it was nets and heels all the way. corporate branding but i think you're right - if you conformed to the 'pretty woman' thing, you got away with a lot more appearance-wise. and clearly anyone with short hair and no make-up was a dyke anyway

I suppose its different for officers. I met Princess Anne and didnt wear heels or a bun net. I also did the Falklands Queens Birthday parade and didnt for that either. I also did the check in for all arrivals and departures to the Falklands.i just put up with a bobble and then put another bobble round it. No one ever told me you had to wear heels it was there you wanted to or not.

I did get a laugh when we were in the OCs office and I was hiding my legs behind the chair legs and he said dont worry dora I have already spotted you are wearing socks with your husbands name on! You dont care about these things so much when your a teenager and young married about things that come with being a 'wife' in society I think.

I mean by special rules that men were more likely to let you off in training if you were a girl and didnt do the uniform properly more than a would get let off, but I dont think you can help that its not like you ask them to do it.

For me personally I enjoy the process of making myself up. I like how it feels. As for the painful stuff like plucking/waxing, although I dislike the process, I enjoy how it feels afterwards.

I love how material feels against my legs when they are hairless.

I'm very motivated by the sense of touch.

dunno, dora. i'd find it a bit patronising to be 'let off' i think. as though you couldn't expect to ever make the grade, so it was pointless trying to get you to. damned if you, damned if you don't, really.
parades different. can't march in heels.

"As for the painful stuff like plucking/waxing"

I don't actually find that painful anyway.

"I love how material feels against my legs when they are hairless."

So do I.

Twice a week I wash my hair (it doesn't need to be washed more often) and I take the time to dry it properly and run the straighteners through it - that's my only beauty practice.

I make the grade in my job, in all jobs that I have ever done. I just dont think shaving my legs, wearing heels or bowing down to 'pressures' is the way I want to live my life. I also think I am very attractive even with my never shaved legs, flat shoes in the forces and hair not in a bun.

Also madwoman what would have happened if you didnt join the committees etc?

sorry dora, typed huge reply and mn ate it.

largely just social ostracisation and lack of promotion, really. no biggie, unless you either want a career or a social life, or heaven forbid, both.

(the original reply had a lot of other bolleaux re women in the military and conforming - which you did nicely by finding yourself a military husband and presumably leaving to have babies how good you are at your job as a woman is largely irrelevant. and whatever the lads said to your face, i bet they questioned your ability when you left the room. have heard it way too many times over great, capable and professional female service personnel.) the fact you are attractive will have lessened the capability requirement further and bloody movers are the worst. you might even have worked for me, and i've defended you against gendered criticism without you knowing.

if it helps, these days i don't wear heels to work, shave my legs, or wear a hairnet. my manager would like it if i did (well, except the hairnet - she'd rather i wore my hair down and perfectly coiffed with a ton of slap) and has made it abundantly clear . i however, in turn, have made it abundantly clear that i don't give a toss.

i'm not arguing for this rubbish, btw. not sure if i made that clear enough. just pondering on societal expectations.

resisting compulsory femininity is very empowering - but you do have to be aware that there may be consequences.

I wasnt a mover. I was admin and it was all girls, including girl sgts and OC admin. I was OC admins PA who was female. There was a male FS but I dont think that most men can be as good at admin as women anyway so I am probably as bad!

I wasnt in the army either btw so we had a lot more women in.I do love the fact as well that my husband didnt conform either as he told his Sgt that he was leaving as he didnt think he could have babies and be a hands on parent if he had to go away. That didnt go down well but fair playto him for standing by what he wanted to do not just following what men as meant to do.

Also I got a recommendation for promotion on my first appraisal, so was on track for promotion ahead of everyone else. You are right I didnt stay cause I went to have babies, and I do agree to have a long career in the military you need to be a conformist, and I wasnt that type of girl I joined for a ten pound bet!

I still dont think in life you have to do any of these things, and stand by that. I think its sad and a shame when I hear people wont leave the house if they dont do x,y,z. I know males and females that do it and think its annoying and pointless. Do they honestly think the person on the street cares less whther you have a not perfectly ironed shirt, a spot, hair not gelled/straightened whatever etc.

I wear make up, shave my legs, wear high heels, but last time I checked it was because I wanted to, and it made ME feel good about myself. BUT there's a wholle different element to it for me.

MY abusive dick of an ex hated me doing anything that he deemed "making myself look pretty". I wasn't allowed to wear make up, wear heels or straighten my hair without his consent. Now, I do it when the hell I like, and I'm not going to have some wave of feminism dictate to me that I can't do so. I spent the first 24 years of my life being oppressed by my parents and my ex. NOW it's about me.

Isn't feminism supposed to be about giving women choice, as opposed to dictating what they can and can't do? Because if the rules of feminism dictate that I can't "prettify" myself, or wear pink, then count me out.

No-one here is telling anyone what to do. If you want to find that, look at S&B or magazines, tv etc. These types of threads are just looking at the reasoning behind the practices. You have yours, Peanut, others have theirs.

AyeRobot, I know, but that's how these threads feel to me... They always feel like the prods of "you can't be a feminist if..." It's not said directly, but it's how they feel to me. But then, maybe it's just me.

That's interesting don'tcall - I have occasionally felt like that about some threads here, but not these ones! I think because there's always a sense that people who don't do all the makeup/heels malarky genuinely are comfortable about it, as opposed to preaching. I do wear heels and makeup and so on (well, right now I'm sitting in my dressing gown with exceedingly hair legs because I'm busy and grooming has gone out the window). But I can understand the sort of relief/amusement people come on these threads to express, you know?

I think in a very equal, feminist-friendly world, some women would still want to do a lot of these things -I have never found wearing four-inch heels makes me less aware of feminism or quieter to pick people up on what they say and do.

Sorry, I just noticed another thing I wanted to reply to - I'm a hirsuite, dark-haired woman, and I am fairly relaxed about shaving, certainly don't do it to go swimming or for a walk with my friends but would for an evening out. I've worn a pretty sundress with hairy legs and I actually think it is easier - anyone can see you're doing it on purpose, if you're wearing a pretty dress and heels and a pelt like mine it is clearly not one of those 'I forgot to shave' days!

I have to admit to getting a kick out of the funny reactions from women who look at me trying to work out how to reconcile the dress and the hairy legs.

I'm so happy at not having to do some of these things for the first time since puberty that my enthusiasm may runneth over sometimes, wouldn't dream of dictating what other women do though.

Feminists can wear whatever clothes they like, unless it's a t-shirt saying "men are better than women" :o

LRD, (love the name change, btw) I think, like I said, it's a matter of perception. Possibly because I hear the "you're too girlie to be a feminist" line a LOT!Maybe I automatically jumped into defensive mode

I do think that we need to teach men that we don't neccessarily "pretty" ourselves for them. We do it for us, more often than not. Or I know I do. And, as you said, the four inch heels doesn't make us oblivious to misogyny. If anything, it scares some of my male friends into agreeing with me.

I think that's exactly it, dontcall. Something I find really annoying is the assumption women really want to dress up and spend loads of money.

Before I got married I remember my dad telling my DH off for wanting to wear something other than a simple dark suit - he insisted it should be the bride who dresses up and one of my most feminist friends agreed and kept on about how I wouldn't feel 'bridal' unless I wore white. I was really shocked by how the wedding industry seems to assume women might spend anything up to a grand on a dress while it's perfectly acceptable for men to hire a suit. It just seems crap to me - men and women should feel able to be as dressy/simple as they want!

Similarly, it really annoys me that where I live is a university town so I see lots of students - you really notice that whereas men need one decent suit for all the social events from balls to graduation, women need different sets of clothes - they're actually not allowed to go to their graduation ceremony if they're not wearing the right stuff! Men can wear an ordinary black tie, but women - get this - have to wear a piece of black ribbon tied around their necks! I know it's a minor example but it always makes me seethe that someone assumes these women have the time and inclination to go and buy themselves a bloody length of ribbon .... isn't that absurd? It is clearly just enforced to make clear that for women this university thing is a bit of a pantomine.

(Oh, and the name-change was in respoonse to mcdowdall, but I quite like it so it can stay for a while. )

Awww, I've missed quite a bit the past week... Including the McDowdall incident :(

Eeek, before I graduate, I must check out my universities rules with graduation dress. The hell am I wearing a piece of ribbon, if we have the same rules. Rather intriguingly, it wasn't until 1999 that my high school allowed girls to start wearing trousers. Even then, it was dictated that they had to be navy. Same with skirts. Boys in the school had the choice of black, navy or grey.

On the wedding front, my best friend has told her future PIL's that she will NOT be wearing white, ivory or cream. Nor will she be spending ten times as much as her fiancee on a suit. In fact, she did joke about buying a Disney Rapunzel costume, based solely on the fact she loved the colour. Here's hoping she finds one in her size, eh

LRD, I'm with you. The but...but I can't pigeonhole you look is amusing. Especially as, strangely enough, it was DH who persuaded me to stop shaving with the argument "I love you, not some artificial hairless doll"

Peanut, I know what you mean about being too girlie. I wore trousers for ages because I thought that it would be anti-feminist of me to wear a skirt. Never mind that I could never ever find a pair of trousers that fit properly or that I hated every minute I spent in bluejeans because I thought that because women can wear trousers that they had to.

It is only in the last couple of years that I realised that I am the wrong shape for trousers but a perfect shape for skirts and dresses. So now I only wear skirts and dresses and am much more comfortable. But I'm wearing them for me.